00:01 calin left
sorear True or false: Rakudo's move to git caused all but 2 core developers to quit in disgust. 00:04
patrickas can the answer to that be a junction ? 00:06
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lue where was it before? 00:11
eternaleye lue: In the parrot repository under languages/ (SVN) 00:12
sorear: I don't remember anyone ragequitting over the move to git
lue why would you quit *in disgust* ? git is a product of Linus Torvalds! 00:13
I say False 00:14
snarkyboojum as a new contributor it doesn't really matter which cvs is in use by a project, you just learn enough to contribute
that's my experience anyway :)
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snarkyboojum I think pulling in new devs to a project or losing them is a function more of the project and the culture than the versioning tool used 00:16
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eternaleye +1 00:17
.oO(we switched to git more developers)
snarkyboojum the current debate on #parrot doesn't seem to be considering that, and anyway, both SVN and Git are comprehensive and effective versioning tools 00:20
end rant :)
lue that seemed more like an observation than a rant :)
snarkyboojum lue: true :) 00:21
lue jnthn --rantify --target="snarkyboojum" --when="[17:20:16]" 00:22
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lue darn, jnthn must be offline :) 00:26
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diakopter sorear: who were the core developers prior to the move 00:32
sorear: oh; you don't know..? /me backlogs irclog.perlgeek.de/parrot/today 00:33
heh. 00:35
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sorear Synopsis clarification request: S09. Do arrays allocate [1] and [0] when allocating [2]? Do arrays with finite defined index sets allocate eagerly? How is it possible to index an array with an infinite number of dimensions, when equality of infinite lists is Rice-hard? Can individual array elements be tied or bound? Is S09:718 a typo? 00:41
How are slice expressions where the subscript evaluates to 0 or 1 element disambiguated from zen slices and index expressions, respectively? 00:42
lue rakudo: my @a= (3); @a[2]=3; say @a.perl
p6eval rakudo c4857a: OUTPUT«[3, Proxy.new(), 3]␤»
lue proxy? ō.o 00:43
sorear rakudo != spec
lue of course it doesn't. that's why people are developing it :D 00:44
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lue std: rakudo == spec 00:46
p6eval std 30529: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Preceding context expects a term, but found infix == instead at /tmp/Jexl3dHlBm line 1:␤------> [32mrakudo [33m⏏[31m== spec[0m␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:01 110m␤»
sorear that error message could stand to be more awesome 00:49
00:49 wolverian left
diakopter std: ::rakudo == ::spec 00:49
p6eval std 30529: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 108m␤»
sorear ideally it should backtrack - list prefix operator cannot be used preceding an operator; did you mean rakudo() ? 00:50
s:2nd/<?before "operator">/infix /
lue (won't dare this, but) wonders if easter eggs in rakudo would be overlooked by every. body. who. contributes. 00:51
diakopter just kickban dalek temporarily :P 00:52
lue and anyone who questions/objects the kickban :) 00:53
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eternaleye Simpler: Just wait until dalek hiccups next 00:57
Happens every once in a while
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lue tries to open the OOP floodgates... but doesn't have op. :( 01:00
s/op/commit bit/
TimToady sorear: zen slices are syntactically empty, .[@empty] is never zen
allocate [1] and [0] on [2]=, yes, for some definition of allocate, but do the elements respond to :exists is a good question 01:01
I think index sets should give the appearance of having been allocated eagerly, probably 01:02
I didn't write much of that middle section; I get svn blamed because I just installed a huge patch from p6l folks. :) 01:03
so I don't know if it is a typo
or about infinite dimensionalities; I hadn't thought we were doing hilbert spaces :)
for default arrays, elements may be bound, but not for native types 01:04
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sorear TimToady: How does postcircumfix:<[ ]> know that the inside is syntactically empty? 01:11
And what about @one-element-list?
TimToady a slice of one element is indistinguishable from a normal index 01:12
postcircumfix:<[ ]> (the operator) never sees the zen slice 01:13
sorear I thought slices generated things that act like arrays
TimToady postcurcumfix:sym<[ ]> asks the semilist if there were any statements inside
sorear ** is specced as meaning ||(* xx 1..*) 01:14
an infinite number of *s
TimToady no, an *arbitrary* number of *s
presumably only works on an array of known dimensionality 01:15
sorear it's specced that way for creating arrays too
TimToady well, that may be undoable
and I'm certainly not interested in slowing down 6.0 over issues like that :) 01:16
I'd go as far as to say none of the ** stuff is needed for 6.0
on slices, .[@foo] is always taken as single dimensional; we have a Slicel type to indicate that there was a ; in there, so that we can distinguish a Slicel from a Parcel 01:19
so, .[@foo] gets a parcel, while .[@foo;] gets a slicel 01:20
and presumably a final ; like that is considered "zen"
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TimToady colomon: if we make CaptureCursor bindings ignore slurpies for the returned position, then your pairwise binding reduces (no pun intended) to -> map $a, *$b {...} 01:34
that is, slurpy parameters could be considered "lookahead"
er, s/-> map/map ->/
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pastiche A Perl6 idiom I've seen a couple times is this: `my Foo::Bar $fb .= new;`. Is that short for `my Foo::Bar $fb = $fb.new;`? And if so, how can that work, since you seemingly haven't yet instantiated the Foo::Bar to call `new()` on it? 01:47
sorear 1. Yes. 01:49
2. Every type has an undef value. The undef value of a class type is considered to be the class itself, and supports a new method
sjohnson hello all
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sorear Hello 01:50
pastiche @sorear: then, shouldn't `my Foo::Bar $fb .= new;` instead be short for `my Foo::Bar $fb = Foo::Bar.new();`? 01:51
sorear No
Or, yes
Foo::Bar is the inital value of $fb if no initializer is given 01:52
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pastiche But, in the statement `my Foo::Bar $fb = $fb.new();`, it looks like $fb is not yet instantiated when you call `.new()` on it. 01:53
Can the syntax for making a new Foo::Bar object be broken up into 2 lines? What would that look like? 01:54
sorear my Foo::Bar $fb;
$fb .=new;
# equivalently
my Foo::Bar $fb = Foo::Bar; # this is how you write undef in perl 6
$fb .=new;
# equivalently
my Foo::Bar $fb; 01:55
$fb = Foo::Bar.new;
pastiche @sorear: thank you. 01:56
01:57 dual left
sorear @? 01:57
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sjohnson aka at sorear: 01:59
would be my guess
gfldex the @ in front of a nickname is forumspeak 02:01
very common in MMORPGS too
read: he is a rather jung lad :)
sorear mmm, Jung 02:03
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sorear TimToady: There's some interesting potential for awesomeness in STD's parsing of <list prefix operator> <infix> 02:04
i.e. sub_sub == 2
STD currently diagnoses a zero-terms-in-a-row error
02:05 Minimiscience left
pastiche @sorear: I thought I was supposed to type `@sorear: ` and then my comment when directing a comment toward you. 02:05
sorear I see. 02:06
jnthn sorear: "True or false: Rakudo's move to git caused all but 2 core developers to quit in disgust." - er, wtf? 02:07
false but...huh.
diakopter jnthn's alive
jnthn yeah... 02:08
colomon Iceland!
jnthn Iceland brews some quite nice beer. :-)
The people are friendly.
sorear jnthn: that argument, minus some strawmanning, was used on #parrot a couple hours ago
jnthn sorear: And, uh, who on earth left?
diakopter jnthn: sorear was referring to #parrot .. yes
jnthn At the time we moved, the core developers were, er, me and Pm. 02:09
lue so it's TRUE!
sorear awaits the compaints abount dBNPERL;
jnthn Yes, there were other folks contributing but...nobody I'd consider "core".
diakopter soft-core maybe
jnthn Anyway, I don't give a damm what #parrot do.
If they want to use svn, they can use it. If they want to use git, they can use it. 02:10
diakopter or they can debate it
lue thinks of model of insides of Earth, only it's the insides of rakudo and the whole of perl6
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jnthn I'll still, provided I have a commit bit, patch it either way. 02:10
sorear and without a commit bit it doesn't affect me either 02:11
jnthn diakopter: If the level of the debate is suggesting things about Rakudo development that have no basis in reality, well... :-/
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lue last I checked, #parrot was about Parrot, not (directly at least) about Rakudo. 02:13
diakopter well. 02:17
a hand-dug one.
lue afk 02:31
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chromatic I find that summary of the dicussion on #parrot inaccurate. jnthn or pmichaud or any other Rakudo committer during the Git switch, would you switch to Git again now, knowing what you know a year later? 02:38
diakopter is jealous of chromatic's fios 02:42
er, envious 02:43
chromatic I don't recommend it; the choice is between Comcast or Verizon. 02:44
That's almost as bad as the choice between Comcast or Qwest. 02:45
diakopter my neighborhood has only Comcast & AT&T
eternaleye I'm currently on FiOS too, it's good for speed but crappy for reliability. I just want Google to play ISP. 02:46
sorear jnthn: That's not the level of the debate. That's the worst thing that came up. The rest was much tamer. 02:47
chromatic Reliability is good, except for when Verizon's DNS mysteriously fails.
eternaleye I just use & 02:48
So I can ignore those
chromatic I have local DNS too, but apparently there's filtering.
eternaleye ick 02:49
Main reason I switched away from verizon's DNS servers is that they redirect NXDOMAIN to their own (awful) page. 02:50
chromatic Yeah, that's why I switched too... except....
eternaleye Well, GoogDNS is global-anycast, and they specifically say they do no filtering 02:51
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sorear rakudo: has $x 03:05
p6eval rakudo c4857a: OUTPUT«You can not add an attribute to a module; use a class or role␤current instr.: 'perl6;Perl6;Compiler;Module;attributes' pc 30043 (src/gen/package_pm.pir:625)␤»
diakopter rakudo: say $*CURRENT_MODULE; say 4 03:13
p6eval rakudo c4857a: OUTPUT«4␤»
diakopter rakudo: say 55 ~ $*CURRENT_MODULE; say 4
p6eval rakudo c4857a: OUTPUT«Contextual $*CURRENT_MODULE not found␤current instr.: 'perl6;Perl6Exception;throw' pc 14877 (src/builtins/Seq.pir:28)␤»
diakopter weird
I guess rakudo's 'say' still has some special-cased exception handling 03:14
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sorear might be worth bugging 03:28
diakopter I'm pretty sure masak has bugged that one to bugdeath 03:29
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sorear is looking into macro implementation 03:43
diakopter o_O 03:49
in rakudo? or in STD :P
sorear rakudo 03:56
dalek meta: r232 | diakopter++ | trunk/Sprixel/Main.cs:
[perlesque] add -e 'eval code' option to Sprixel.exe
meta: r233 | diakopter++ | trunk/Sprixel/Main.cs:
[perlesque] fix my (not 1, but 3!) off-by-one errors. :|
sorear but first I need to understand the spec well enough to figure out exactly what the bodies of macros are supposed to /do/ :/
the obvious way is to treat the body of the macro as just a grammatical action 03:59
running in a $/ topicalizer and returning a PAST::Node via make 04:00
diakopter I've slept since I last read that portion of the spec, so ... I'd be no help. 04:01
sorear: I think TimToady commented on macros here; you might search the irclogs 04:09
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.oO( dalek is gone. Time for that easter egg :) )
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sorear Why does ~~ have chain associativity? It's not transitive 05:29
What is the model of operator precence order? The synopsis seems to imply a Stern-Brocot tree with the standard operators identified with the leaves of some truncation, but if I try really hard I can construe it to also mean a free preorder 05:31
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lue goodnight moon 05:44
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sorear diakopter: suprisingly enough, the thing on macros actually mostly makes sense 06:11
Is anybody running an "anti-smoker", to find out if any spectests have started working and we forgot to unfudge them? 06:13
chromatic I forget the name of the program, but there's a test summary program which does exactly that. 06:14
sorear most test harnesses have a thingie for "unexpected successes" 06:15
however, the fudger defeats that
chromatic tools/autounfudge.pl ?
sorear anything guarded by #?rakudo skip is- I'm blind
06:23 kokajxo joined
sorear next, to study the grammar 06:28
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diakopter pmurias: g'morning? 06:42
sleep& 06:43
truewar Good morning) 06:50
sorear Hello! 06:59
pmurias diakopter: g'morning 07:00
and g'night
07:03 dalek left
truewar Could anybody introduce me to Perl6? 07:06
07:07 JimmyZ left, dalek joined
truewar I am mostly interested in Perl6 Roadmap 07:07
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sorear truewar, Perl6. Perl6, truewar. 07:14
if you want a better introduction we'll need to know more about you
trying to explain Perl6 from first principles would take days (weeks?), but we can skip most of that depending on what you know 07:15
are you a programmer and are you a Perl 5 programmer are the easiest questions
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sjohnson truewar: perl6.org 07:22
and you're done!
07:24 kokajxo left
sorear rakudo: sub circumfix:<AA BB> { ... }; AA 2 BB; 07:33
p6eval rakudo c4857a: OUTPUT«error:imcc:syntax error, unexpected '\n'␤ in file 'EVAL_1' line 58␤Confused at line 11, near "AA 2 BB;"␤current instr.: 'perl6;HLL;Grammar;panic' pc 500 (ext/nqp-rx/src/stage0/HLL-s0.pir:328)␤»
sorear rakudo: sub circumfix:«AA BB» { ... }; AA 2 BB;
p6eval rakudo c4857a: OUTPUT«error:imcc:syntax error, unexpected '\n'␤ in file 'EVAL_1' line 58␤Confused at line 11, near "AA 2 BB;"␤current instr.: 'perl6;HLL;Grammar;panic' pc 500 (ext/nqp-rx/src/stage0/HLL-s0.pir:328)␤»
sorear huh, rakudo doesn't actually seem to implement scoping of operator definitions 07:35
at all
this makes things easier
what exactly is a nibbler? 07:41
moritz_ it's a thing that transforms a grammar; or a parametric grammar; or some such :-) 07:44
sorry, can't answer "exactly"
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pugssvn r30530 | pmurias++ | [mildew] started rewriting m0ld using Regexp::Grammars 08:04
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pugssvn r30531 | moritz++ | [t/spec] fudge\e tests for rakudo 08:40
r30532 | pmurias++ | [mildew] m0ld parses a simple call 08:42
moritz_ sorear: what's true is that after rakudo moved to git, the numbers of patches decreased, because the rakudo code base wasn't subject to parrot's codingstyle tests... 08:46
sorear: and there were a bunch of people regularly fixing trailing whitespace in rakudo 08:47
those people usually weren't given commit access to the rakudo repo on github
so if you look at the bare numbers, yes, the numbers of commiters decreased - but the number of features or bug fixes didn't 08:48
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sorear Why does NQP's regex engine wrap the *source* string in a CodeString? 08:59
moritz_ because it allows easier search for line numbers, iirc
but pmichaud said it was going to change
sorear wonders why we don't just track lines in $*LINE in the .ws rule 09:00
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sorear reading the grammar for grammars is more than a little trippy 09:07
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Guest62733 Parrots runtime/parrot/library/Pg.pir seems to work, or at least t/library/pg.t runs OK. 09:32
Can I somwhow use Pg.pir from rakudo?
sorear yesish 09:33
Guest62733 will try try 09:34
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sorear you'll then need to do some trickery with pir::get_root_global__PPS to import the symbols you want to use 09:34
I guess my next project is to fix use :from<parrot> in Rakudo 09:35
alpha: use Pg:from<parrot>;
p6eval alpha 30e0ed: OUTPUT«error loading libpq - loadlib failed␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤»
sorear now understands enough regex guts to at least *try* macros 09:39
Guest62733 sorear: Even if I just want to use it as a class?
sorear Guest62733: A class is just a kind of global 09:40
Guest62733 yeah, makes sense. 09:41
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sorear TimToady: What is the rationale for invoking macros with the match object in self, instead of $/ ? 09:48
09:48 masak joined
masak ahooloi, lambdacamels, parrotcamels, and camelcamels. 09:48
sorear hello masak 09:49
masak what's new? 09:50
JimmyZ \0\o
moritz_ writes a Perl 6 talk 09:51
sorear tries to write a macro implementation
moritz_ any recommendations what I could use for my slides?
masak sorear: !
moritz_: what a general question?
moritz_: what kind of talk is it?
moritz_ sorear: just a word of warning, I think pmichaud mentioned that he doesn't want macros before rakudo star
masak: Perl 6 for a perl 5 perl mongers group 09:52
I meant to ask about the technical side
what kind of software to use for writing the talk
I kinda started writing my own, but that seems very inefficient
masak always ends up writing his own :P
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JimmyZ hugme: help 09:58
hugme JimmyZ: (add $who to $project | list projects | show $project | hug $nickname | tweet $twittername $message )
JimmyZ hugme: list projects
hugme JimmyZ: I know about book, gge, hugme, ilbot, json, november, nqp-rx, nqpbook, perl6-examples, proto, pugs, rmp, svg-matchdumper, svg-plot, temporal-flux-perl6syn, tufte, web
JimmyZ p6c 10:00
masak moritz_: any chance we could add tardis and yapsi to that list? 10:02
moritz_ masak: take your chances, do it :-)
hugme: add masak to hugme
hugme moritz_: ERROR: Can't add masak to hugme: HTTP/1.1 401 Unauthorized
moritz_ ouch 10:03
hugme: add masak to json
hugme moritz_: ERROR: Can't add masak to json: HTTP/1.1 401 Unauthorized
moritz_ hugme: add masak to book
hugme hugs masak. Welcome to book!
moritz_ ok, it's just my account that's b0rked
masak is already welcome to book :)
mayhaps I'll send a patch...
moritz_ masak: I'll just fix hugme so that I can add you to hugme :-) 10:04
masak: then you can push
masak :P
I'll prepare the commit in the meantime.
moritz_ hugme: reload
hugme moritz_: reloaded successfully
moritz_ hugme: add masak to hugme
hugme hugs masak. Welcome to hugme!
moritz_ there you go 10:05
masak hugs hugme. thank yoU!
moritz_ I had just changed my github password, which in turn changed the API token
JimmyZ hugme: hug masak
hugme hugs masak
masak hugme has no README :P
moritz_ masak: you'll find projects.json pretty self-explanatory
masak hugme: hug 卓明亮
hugme hugs 卓明亮 and blushes
masak :)
JimmyZ hugme: show rakudo 10:06
hugme JimmyZ: sorry, I don't know anything about 'rakudo'
JimmyZ hugme: show nqp-rx
hugme JimmyZ: the following people have power over 'nqp-rx': PerlJam, TimToady, [particle], colomon, jnthn, masak, moritz_, pmichaud. URL: github.com/perl6/nqp-rx/
moritz_ hugme doesn't know about CLAs
masak patches welcome :)
JimmyZ hugme: hug 麦高 10:07
hugme hugs 麦高
masak :) 10:08
JimmyZ humge: why not blush?
masak she only blushes occasionally.
10:09 rurban left
masak hugme: reload 10:11
hugme masak: reloaded successfully
masak hugme: list projects
hugme masak: I know about book, gge, hugme, ilbot, json, november, nqp-rx, nqpbook, perl6-examples, proto, pugs, rmp, svg-matchdumper, svg-plot, temporal-flux-perl6syn, tufte, web
moritz_ hugme: reload
masak hm.
hugme moritz_: reloaded successfully
moritz_ hugme: list projects
hugme moritz_: I know about book, gge, hugme, ilbot, json, november, nqp-rx, nqpbook, perl6-examples, proto, pugs, rmp, svg-matchdumper, svg-plot, tardis, temporal-flux-perl6syn, tufte, web, yapsi
masak \o/
I was too quick.
moritz_ I still have to pull manually on feather2 10:12
paranoia etc.
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masak ah. 10:18
yes, keep it that way.
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colomon I didn't know I had a commit bit on nqp-rx. (Or had forgotten, at any rate.) 10:26
moritz_ colomon: you probably don't, unless you gave yourself one
sorear hugme's list is metacommitters 10:27
moritz_ colomon: it's the list of people who can add commiters, not he committers
right, what sorear said
truewar1 Sorear, sorry. was AFK
sorear don't apologize, we have logbuffers for a reason
colomon ah, that makes sense.
sorear I'm AFK 8-18 hours a day and never apologize about it
truewar1 I used PHP for 8 years. I also used Perl5 several times for small scritps: backup, creating hosting accounts etc. 10:28
But now I have some reasons to choose other tahn PHP language for my projects. 10:29
I read about Python and I even wanted to choose it and BAH! found Perl6 10:30
I read some tips about it, about objects model
They are really nice
masak we like it too. :) 10:31
truewar1 Does it have any road map or something? What future waits for that project?
masak truewar1: maybe someone has told you this already, but current implementations (like Rakudo) are both quite far along and a bit bumpy still. 10:32
10:32 truewar1 is now known as Truewar
masak Truewar: github.com/rakudo/rakudo/blob/maste...cs/ROADMAP 10:32
Truewar: the immediate future holds a promised distribution release called Rakudo Star. 10:33
jnthn Morning :-)
masak jnthn: \o/
jnthn And yes, it *is* still morning in Iceland!
moritz_ what time zone is iceland? GMT-2?
ah, UTC 10:34
just found it
masak that's my favorite time zone :)
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Truewar WHat kind of soft I need to use perl6 for web projects? 10:35
sorear hmm
masak Truewar: last year we developed something called Web.pm for exactly that purpose.
sorear Do I understand correctly that, while we parse a file, the Match objects retain *both* a full AST *and* the PAST? 10:36
masak but it's not done yet, and the best advice I have is to start small and be patient.
moritz_ sorear: yes
sorear I wonder if that accounts for much of our memory use when compiling the setting
masak Truewar: if you haven't done any Perl 6 before, it might be better to start with something non-web. the web parts are still full of frustration. 10:37
and I don't believe latest Rakudo does sockets yet.
jnthn masak: I'm pretty sure sockets are back since a while. 10:38
masak I sit corrected. sockets are back.
(whoever did that)++
jnthn I forget who, but yes. :-) 10:39
masak: Well, I like the timezone shift in that I could get up at a sensible time here, but it was like sleeping until midday back home. 10:40
Truewar %)
masak jnthn: there's a 'fun' surprise for you when you go back home, then... :P 10:41
jnthn masak: oh noes...
I should just do continual round-the-world trips.
masak then you'll inexplicably start to lose days instead :) 10:42
sorear trait_mod: stuff is only run at CHECK time?
this will make the implementation of 'is parsed' somewhat awkward 10:43
masak I'm doing spectesting now in order to apply JimmyZ's patch. are the 9 fails in t/spec/S05-mass/properties-derived.rakudo known? 10:44
moritz_ runs that file 10:45
All tests successful.
jnthn sorear: We special case a few of them.
moritz_ masak: one of the properties- files had some tests that pass on some platforms, and fail on others 10:46
masak: maybe somebody unfudged them because they were passing TODOs for them
masak ah.
jnthn sorear: But in general, yes.
moritz_ maye #?skip them this time
masak I've seen those failures before. 10:47
jnthn Min internets e kas.
masak I think I've added fudges for them once.
moritz_ *maybe
masak or not. the file hasn't been touched since August. 10:48
moritz_ then it's a new failure
10:48 kokajxo left
moritz_ maybe related to nqp-rx updates? 10:48
10:50 sjn left
masak yeah... 10:50
this still feels horribly familiar.
masak greps the irclogs
jnthn goes for breakfast...to a place that serves Jack Daniels milkshakes. 11:01
sorear has decided that the sanest way to implement macro foo is parsed(/bar/) { bazzle } is to notionally rewrite it into BEGIN { Perl6::Compiler.add_macro('foo', /bar/, sub ($/) { bazzle });
masak backlogs the #parrot discussion about git from last night, and is alarmed and dismayed by how out-of-touch some of the core Parrot people seem to be with Rakudo development 11:08