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pugs_svn r29431 | lwall++ | [S01] take another lap around Mt Sinai... 00:50
chromatic I've been to Mt. Sinai. You need a beard. 00:52
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pugs_svn r29432 | diakopter++ | redaction; see r29431 01:22
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au9ustine perl6: say 3; 03:11
p6eval elf 29432, pugs, rakudo db84bc: 3␤
soupdragon perl6: don't say 3; 03:12
p6eval pugs: *** ␤ Unexpected "'"␤ expecting "::", dot, ":", "(", term postfix or operator␤ at /tmp/d9yFEEEpai line 1, column 4␤
..rakudo db84bc: 3␤Could not find non-existent sub don't␤in Main (file src/gen_setting.pm, line 324)␤
..elf 29432: Parse error in: /tmp/GxOC8BTxGH␤panic at line 1 column 0 (pos 0): Can't understand next input--giving up␤WHERE: don't say 3;␤WHERE:/\<-- HERE␤ STD_red/prelude.rb:99:in `panic'␤ STD_red/std.rb:76:in `scan_unitstopper'␤ STD_red/std.rb:224:in `comp_unit'␤ STD_red/std.rb:210:in
..`_UNIT'␤ …
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diakopter ok.. 03:14
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dduncan I have a question about terminology in either programming languages or maths, with respect to intervals such as what Perl 6 calls the Range ... 04:32
specifically, I wondered what the more proper or understandable terms are to distinguish what I call a continuous vs discontinuous range ...
by continuous I mean eg {1..10} and by noncontinuous I mean eg {1..3,6,8..9} 04:33
basically, what would be the best terms to use to distinguish those 2 examples I gave?
I'm also talking about intervals in a type-agnostic manner ... eg they may be over numbers or dates or strings or whatever 04:34
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araujo araujo just released his small language! 04:43
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colomon TimToady++ 04:58
slavik Happy New Year! 05:00
wolf2k_ubuntu same
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colomon Happy New Year indeed! 05:11
xinming Happy new year to all. 05:12
cbk Happy New Year, Perl6 you guys are great and I wish you all the best with perl6! 05:19
Tene You too!
cbk thanks. 05:20
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spinclad dduncan: well, your noncontinuous example isn't currently called a Range or an interval... so interval and non-interval, or Range and non-Range. 07:23
s/currently// 07:24
dduncan ignoring what the Range of Perl 6 represents ...
what is a good name for the 2 different set-like constructs that are expressed and stored in terms of interval endpoints?
is what I was trying to determine 07:25
ideally, I would be able to say {1..10} is a "foo quux" and that {1..2,4..5} is a "bar quux" ... 07:26
or alternately that the first is a "foo" and the second is a "bar"
spinclad but your second example isn't expressed as an interval, with interval endpoints; it's a construct composed of intervals and points
dduncan something that distinguishes the 2 from each other, and the latter from things that aren't the latter
spinclad interval and non-interval 07:27
dduncan the {1..3,6,8..9} should be read as {1..3,6..6,8..9}
spinclad ok
dduncan its a shorthand
spinclad interval and Borel set? (looking up definition...) 07:28
dduncan so my real question is, what does one call a {1..2,4..5} ?
its fairly unambiguous that a {1..10} is an "interval"
I suppose I could call it an "interval set"
maybe that is best 07:29
but I thought maybe there was another term out there to mean what a {1..2,4..5} is
considering how often such a piece of data is used
spinclad (Borel set is made of intersections of unions of intervals, or vice versa, i forget now) 07:30
union or sum of intervals
dduncan thanks for the lead 07:31
a union of arbitrary intervals is the sort of thing I'm looking for
looking ...
spinclad i expect Borel set is both too specific and quite a bit fancier than what you're looking for 07:32
used in analysis, for defining foundations for integration and such 07:33
dduncan I'll look it up anyway, out of curiosity 07:34
spinclad and for defining measurable sets and such like -- not my specialty but i got some exposure
dduncan I will note that my base interval in question is for all intents and purposes the same as Perl 6's range ... it can do both open and closed intervals, and supports +/-Inf, and is base type generic 07:36
and the other one is a set of those, which is allowed to be the empty set
that also means its basically one-dimensional 07:37
so maybe or maybe not Borel applies ... at first glance it seems multi-dimensional
spinclad i expect an analyst would call [0,1) x [0,1) simply a 2-dimensional interval (that is, 0..^1 X 0..^1 in Perl 6 terms, though the X is not quite right) 07:40
so fancier than you're looking for, but coinciding over your domain of interest. 07:41
Borel similarly applies in a 1-d domain 07:42
but you don't need infinite unions or intersections, and so don't need intersections at all... so unions of intervals sounds right 07:43
(finite unions)
(at :2nd place) 07:44
dduncan the set of intervals I am thinking of would have a finite number of set elements, but each element may represent an infinite number of points, such as if written over rationals
operations on them would be similar to operations on sets
spinclad sure, each element is an interval
dduncan I'm thinking for now I may just call the larger thing "interval set" or "interval union", thinking probably the latter now 07:45
spinclad (and 1..3,2..4 can be simplified to 1..4)
dduncan exactly
spinclad sounds good
dduncan while "borel" at al sounds fancy, I'm hesitant to use something I don't understand enough, as people who know more than me might be confused by it 07:46
or people that know less
an expert can always recommend a rename later
spinclad, thank you for your help
spinclad you don't need borel, it's the wrong concept
dduncan but between the 2 options, set vs union, which reads better or sounds more accurate?
I consider the thing to be a generalization of a set ... 07:47
spinclad union, to me; it's more specific how they're combined.
dduncan that can represent infinite values in finite memory
while union seems to describe a bit more an interpretation
or concept
but I'll go with union I think, which you seem to think better 07:48
spinclad i consider intervals and interval unions on the same level, both being sets of points
dduncan, you're welcome 07:49
happy to help
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dduncan and over here the year will tick over in 11 minutes, so happy new year 07:49
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spinclad over here, 3 hours old; happy new year to you too. may the year be good to you. 07:52
and i wish all on #perl6, and all Perl people (both 5 and 6) a Happy New Year! may the new year bring us joy, and happiness, and peace. 08:10
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dduncan yes, we can't have enough peas 08:33
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Su-Shee good morning 09:55
soupdragon hi
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pugs_svn r29433 | unobe++ | * Start Spec/Coverage.pm by explaining its purpose/goals 11:21
r29433 | new file: Coverage.pm
r29433 | new file: TODO
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khurt The "www.perl6.org/" web site suggested that this IRC was the place to hangout and get more information perl 6. How does this work? This place seems abondoned. 13:57
diakopter khurt: hi!
mberends khurt: sorry, I was dozing a little. How can we help?
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khurt It's been awhile since I tracked the progress of Perl 6 and it seems that nothing is ready for prime time. I am not a computer science major and most of the information I have found seems to be written from the point of view of language developers. What is avaiable for a long time perl 5 developer who just want to understand what is what and how is it useful? 13:59
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mberends for just reading, the Perl 6 Advent is a nice view of what's possible perl6advent.wordpress.com/ 14:01
we are mainly builders here, but we love eager early adopters too and give them plenty of help 14:02
khurt I read the advent and could follow most of the "language science" jargon. I had to look up the word advent. :) I found this: en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Perl_6_Progra...Structures to be more useful. 14:03
Perl 6 seems like another language all together. Not really perl. More like Java/Python/C++.
mberends many people adopt that viewpoint, it's one valid perspective. But it is *very* Perlish. 14:04
diakopter khurt: may I ask what sorts of things you tend to use Perl for (just broad categories here: web, systems, science, etc)
khurt A lot of the doco seems to be written in the language of computer science language/compiler majors. I use perl to build system level utilities and web sites but mostly to analyse very large logs and data sets I'm an information security analyst for a biopharma. 14:06
I have been using Perl since about 1997 and have almost every O'Reilly book on Perl (but not all of them). 14:07
diakopter :)
mberends khurt: you'll like Perl 6 regexes then
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khurt Taking a look at the wiki for that now. I love regexes. Can't live without them. :-). I keep reading about Rakadu. Is that something I can use right now to get an understanding of how things work? I learn best by doing. 14:09
diakopter I can see how a transition from linguistically-focused to language-oriented programming increases the "language science" jargon
mberends khurt: yes, that's a good way to get started. And on most days there are plenty more helpers around. 14:10
diakopter khurt: also, you can try it out, synchronously, here on the channel
if you're accustomed to the fancier 5.10 regex features, I don't think those are implemented yet. 14:12
khurt: you can download a build (or build from source) of rakudo at rakudo.org/download 14:13
khurt @diakopter: What do you mean by "you can try it out, synchronously, here on the channel"?
diakopter I mean
mberends khurt: another nice book is cloud.github.com/downloads/perl6/bo...009-12.pdf 14:14
diakopter rakudo.org/how-to-get-rakudo
khurt: the p6eval bot responds to rakudo: do { }; and std: do { }; and others 14:15
std: //
p6eval std 29433: ===SORRY!===␤Null regex not allowed at /tmp/WnuBeeCQ6V line 1:␤------> //⏏<EOL>␤FAILED 00:01 106m␤
khurt @mberends: Thanks for that link! I think this is what I am looking. The "how to speak" book. What I felt I had found so far was more akin to a discussion of "What is English" versus "Learn English". 14:16
diakopter (also, you can message p6eval directly if you don't want others to see your inputs 14:17
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mberends rakudo: my $visitor="khurt"; say "howdy, $visitor"; 14:17
p6eval rakudo db84bc: howdy, khurt␤
diakopter_ std: //
p6eval std 29433: ===SORRY!===␤Null regex not allowed at /tmp/wxGi5Hg2On line 1:␤------> //⏏<EOL>␤FAILED 00:01 104m␤
khurt diakopter, is there an OS X binary? Will Rakudo compile under OS X 10.6?
arnsholt khurt: I don't think messages work, unfortunately =)
diakopter_ aww, webchat.freenode.net doesn't convert the ansi colors
arnsholt Several of the devs use Mac
khurt is "say" a replacement for print 14:18
mberends khurt: yes it is
arnsholt say is print with a \n at the end
khurt why?
diakopter_ for convenience, when that's useful
arnsholt Because that's a really common thing to do, so it makes sense to have a function for it
mberends khurt: most mac users build Rakudo from source 14:19
khurt With xcode comiler or do I need gcc?
arnsholt Just gcc. But if you've installed the XCode tools I'm pretty sure you've got make and gcc
khurt From my experience building perl from source can take half a day. 14:20
.oO( I wonder if parrot builds ok with the llvm-gcc in XCode )
it's much smaller
arnsholt khurt: Rakudo isn't that big yet =)
khurt Good to know.
arnsholt On my MacBook Pro it takes 10 or 15 minutes I think 14:21
diakopter it's not a fork of perl
khurt I've compiled my own perl 5 in the past but would prefer a static build for my platform. I guess I'll see what setup is needed and proceed from there.
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diakopter rakudo.org/how-to-get-rakudo 14:22
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khurt "it's not a fork of perl" .. but perl 6 seems that way to me. It is almost alien. I am having trouble even calling it perl. But .. I may get over that resistance with familiarity. I supposed speakers of middle-English would not recognize modern day English either. 14:23
soupdragon your totally right khurt 14:24
diakopter khurt: I meant, rakudo/parrot is not a fork of the perl sources
khurt Ok. I'm here: github.com/rakudo/rakudo how do I avoid the "first you need this, then that, then this ..." to get to what I need in the shortest possible route. 14:26
I don't have github. 14:27
I know have Xcode installed.
arnsholt khurt: Download the december release, from github.com/rakudo/rakudo/downloads 14:28
khurt I did. I did "perl Configuler.pl" and got an "Unable to locate parrot_config" error message. 14:30
arnsholt You should probably do perl Configure.pl --gen-parrot
colomon that does need svn 14:31
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arnsholt True, true 14:31
colomon (--gen-parrot needs svn, I mean)
khurt So I need to build parrot, then build rakudo? Anything else?
arnsholt Nope
diakopter imho someone should make a --gen-parrot-http that downloads the appropriate parrot svn snapshot. 14:32
khurt Good to know. I tend to have a very low "frustration threshold" for things that don't "just work". :)
arnsholt diakopter: Good point 14:33
khurt Ok.. that bombed with the same error message "Unable to locate parrot_config "
Do I need to be root?
colomon no.
khurt Aparently I don't have "gcc-4.2" 14:34
mberends the --gen-parrot option calls svn to get the correct Parrot source version 14:35
colomon khurt: what claims you need gcc-4.2 ? I'm building on OS X with gcc-4.0, and everything works fine. 14:36
mberends khurt: what does your gcc --version say? (my Linux one is 4.4.1)
khurt colomon, I have xcode installed. Does that not include gcc? 14:37
mberends there was an issue with 4.2.1 on bsd related unices
arnsholt My Mac has 4.2.1 14:38
diakopter gcc --version
says what?
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khurt I can't seem to find a way to invoke gcc from the terminal. I assumed GCC was included with my install of Xcode. 14:46
mberends probably not, then. is there a ports way to install gcc?
arnsholt GCC should come with XCode 14:47
diakopter no, it's in XCode
arnsholt khurt: What do you get if you say "ls /usr/bin/gcc"?
khurt "No such file or directory" which means I have no gcc. 14:48
arnsholt WEird
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khurt But using Xcode I can compule a simple "Hello World" C program. 14:50
Not sure what is going on.
diakopter khurt: did you upgrade snow leopard from 10.5? you'll need to install XCode from the snow leopard DVD, if so.
mberends there are other C compilers besides gcc, maybe you have another cc
diakopter what version of XCode do you have 14:51
khurt turns out I also have no "make". Aarrgh! Apple is killing me. Maybe I should just VPN into the office and use the Linux server I use everyday.
diakopter sounds like your PATH is botched
arnsholt I think diakopter may be onto something
khurt the only cc in /usr/bin is perlcc 14:52
diakopter what does ls /usr/bin/gcc-4.2
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khurt On Xcode 3.1.2 14:52
ls *cc* in /usr/bin return nothing but "distccd perlcc perlcc5.8.9 rpcclient runocc.d". i may need an updated xcode. Let me check that. 14:53
mberends khurt: what does 'which cc' give you? 14:54
khurt 'which cc' returns nothing
arnsholt khurt: I think you need to update XCode
khurt I am downloading Xcode 3.2.1 now.
arnsholt That should fix it. IIRC 3.1 is for 10.5 and 3.2 for 10.6 14:55
colomon colomon is wishing Rakudo had unindenting here-strings working already, it would be perfect for $work.
diakopter khurt: what about /Developer/usr/bin/gcc-4.2 14:57
khurt diakopter: Yep. There is a gcc in /Developer/usr/bin/ 14:58
Why the heck would Apple do that? 14:59
diakopter I bet the XCode installation added it to your PATH originally, but the osx upgrade reset it 15:00
esp if you're root
khurt I don't normally run as admin and root is disabled on my Macs 15:01
arnsholt diakopter: No. On my machine it's in /usr/bin
So the upgrade probably nuked all of /usr/bin
diakopter ah, the symlinks that were there 15:02
arnsholt: are yours symlinks?
arnsholt /usr/bin/gcc symlinks to /usr/bin/gcc-4.2, which is a real executable 15:03
khurt So now gcc is in my path ( i added all /Developer/usr/bin). And I reran the 'perl Configure.pl --gen-parrot" and got the same error. 15:04
arnsholt I think you should wait for the XCode update
diakopter diakopter agrees
khurt Doing that now. 15:05
I hate dependencies. :(
diakopter if you copied files to /usr/bin you should remove them, and if you symlinked things there, you should unlink them, I recommend. 15:06
khurt I copied nothing to /usr/bin. The upgrade from OS X 10.5 to OS X 10.6 must have moved my older Xcode to /Developer/ ( I assume). 15:07
arnsholt I think it probably just wiped whatever was in /usr/bin and put in the stuff it wanted 15:08
diakopter oh, you just edited $PATH; sorry; I misread
khurt Reading Xcode doco. Says "GCC 4.2 is the primary system compiler for the 10.6 SDK" so ... I should be good to go once I have that installed (it's a big install!). 15:11
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diakopter 2010 looks ominous in a filesystem mtime listing 15:13
khurt gcc is hashed (/usr/bin/gcc) 15:15
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khurt Got Xcode 3.2.1 installed. Running rakudo install (first needs to build parrot) and all seems to be proceeding well. 15:16
diakopter khurt: yay :)
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khurt Well .. for all the hassle at least now I have an updated (and working) version of Xcode (wonder why Software Update does not update Xcode) and soon a perl 6 I can play with. 15:21
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khurt success. I have a working rakudo. 15:43
Thanks so much for everyone's help. I might be back later to ask more perl6 related questions. 15:45
mberends all the best, khurt 15:46
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masak TimToady++ # r29431 16:22
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diakopter phenny: tell chromatic I'll have you know I'm *again* switching back to JavaScript :/ sigh. .words.eat Compiling to JS now, though, now that I know how to write an emitter builder. 17:02
phenny diakopter: I'll pass that on when chromatic is around.
frettled I'll join masak in a TimToady++ for r29431. 17:04
khurt Is a pelr6 regex synonymous with rule? Is there a perl 6 document that explains regex without comparison to perl 6? 17:06
I meant without comparison to perl 5.
diakopter TimToady++ # addressing nearly all of my requests in r29431 17:11
khurt: this page is great... perlgeek.de/blog-en/perl-5-to-6/ 17:13
khurt cool. thanks. any way to get perl 6 to use cpan? 17:22
diakopter not yet.
khurt Ok. been using perl since 1997 and Perl 6 makes me feel like I know nothing. 17:24
looks like I'll have to take all my perl books (I have a lot of stuff written by wall, torkington and conway) and chuck em. 17:25
diakopter take your time with that perl-5-to-6 page; it'll stretch your mind... don't toss your books :P
ash_ khurt: have you read the spec on regex's yet? S05?
khurt nope.
mberends khurt: Perl 5 is not going away
ash_ perlcabal.org/syn/S05.html
has the full spec of the new regex stuff in perl 6 17:26
i'd also recommend github.com/perl6/book direct link: cloud.github.com/downloads/perl6/bo...009-12.pdf 17:27
some of the guys developing perl 6 made that book, its really good and informative if your just getting to know perl 6
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khurt are perl six regex a new language? I can't grok it. 17:50
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ash_ khurt: yeah basically, they are a new syntax with new capabilities 17:51
and are a bit more integrated into perl than perl 6's regex's were
mberends than perl 5's
ash_ or that 17:52
sorry i must not be fully awake yet *needs more caffeine* 17:53
mberends mberends hands ash_ a mug of coffee 17:54
khurt I'm just not getting it. In perl 5 I would do "my( $ip ) = ($log_line =~ /(\d{2,3}\.\d{2,3}\.\d{2,3}\.\d{2,3})/ )[0];" to math the IP in this line "1012429341.115 100 TCP_MISS/302 184 GET www.cisco.com myloginname DIRECT/www.cisco.com -"
but not sure how to proceed in perl 6. 17:55
I know about using ~~ but then what? This "$log_line ~~ /(\d{2,3}\.\d{2,3}\.\d{2,3}\.\d{2,3})/" fails.
mberends the {2,3} has changed, I forget the details, possibly ** notation. See S05. 17:56
khurt What in here: perlcabal.org/syn/S05.html#Match_objects should I pay attention to? 17:57
mberends looking...
diakopter std: my $log_line = "1012429341.115 100 TCP_MISS/302 184 GET www.cisco.com myloginname DIRECT/www.cisco.com -"; say $log_line ~~ /(\d**{2,3}\.\d**{2,3}\.\d**{2,3}\.\d**{2,3})/;
p6eval std 29433: ok 00:01 109m␤ 17:58
diakopter rakudo: my $log_line = "1012429341.115 100 TCP_MISS/302 184 GET www.cisco.com myloginname DIRECT/www.cisco.com -"; say $log_line ~~ /(\d**{2,3}\.\d**{2,3}\.\d**{2,3}\.\d**{2,3})/;
p6eval rakudo db84bc: perl6regex parse error: Error in closure quantifier at offset 164, found ','␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤
diakopter rakudo: my $log_line = "1012429341.115 100 TCP_MISS/302 184 GET www.cisco.com myloginname DIRECT/www.cisco.com -"; say $log_line ~~ /(\d**{2..3}\.\d**{2..3}\.\d**{2..3}\.\d**{2..3})/;