00:00 fridim_ left 00:01 pmurias joined, nihiliad left
Tene masak, jnthn: a standard solution to the intimidation problem is to separate into two channels, one being new-user-oriented. 00:01
pmurias is unsure if he should git svn dcommit mid migration to new STD mildew 00:02
Tene I remember that #perl6 used to be about Perl 6 in general, and #pugs was where pugs dev happened, iirc...
#perl6-devel, maybe...
masak but I like new users here! I just want them to be braver.
pmurias Tene: #pugs i don't remember 00:03
masak Tene: don't think it was ever #pugs.
it was #perl6 in early 2005 when I got here.
pmurias especially as autrijus created #perl6 00:04
Tene masak: i don't trust my memory for anything... not surprised I'm wrong.
masak: might be helpful to identify why we're intimidating, and consider whether moving some of the intimidating discussion to a back room would be helpful. 00:05
masak I'm not saying splitting into two channels would be a bad move... I'd probably hang out in both channels. but I like how #perl6 is all over the place, everything from lolspeak to compiler internals.
Tene masak: I agree, I don't like the idea of pushing new users to a different channel.
masak: Me too. :)
masak we even have some lolspeak in our compiler internals. :) 00:06
diakopter what? you mean all new Perl 6 users shouldn't have to pass the #perl6 gauntlet?
Tene There shouldn't be a gauntlet, no. 00:08
00:10 jferrero left
Tene Okay, going home now. The GF is dragging me out for some socializing, but I plan to lurk in the corner with my laptop the entire night hacking on Parrot. 00:12
00:12 dakkar left
Tene any requests for ng features? 00:12
diakopter heh 00:13
trailing while/until?
Tene Sure. :)
00:17 mberends left
diakopter pmurias, mberends: perl_vs_v8.pastebin.com/d2c12b8a6 a simple/dumb microbenchmark. v8 has higher startup time, but its loop scales much better 00:17
just missed mberends
masak don't worry, he backlogs. 00:19
pmurias diakopter: would would be more intresting is a v8 vs C comparision 00:21
diakopter :P
pmurias diakopter: and measuring the cost of abstraction is more important than numerics
00:21 hcchien left
diakopter yes, a Perl scalar is just about the same level of abstraction as a JavaScript variable... 00:23
has very similar semantics, I mean
sjohnson diakopter: is there a way to dump available methods for a type? 00:25
rakudo: say Array().methods; 00:26
p6eval rakudo 7ce13d: invoke() not implemented in class 'ResizablePMCArray'␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤
pmurias diakopter: what i worry much is how having an extra layer (or two) of method calls will affect performance
* much more
jnthn sjohnson: .^
rakudo: say Array.^methods
p6eval rakudo 7ce13d: ScalarshiftArraypushspliceexistsunshiftpopitemvaluesdelete␤
jnthn rakudo: say Array.^methods>>.name.join(' ') 00:27
p6eval rakudo 7ce13d: pop item values delete Scalar shift Array push splice exists unshift␤
00:27 hcchien joined
zaslon lolperl6adventhazblogged! perl6advent++ 'Failure()<0xb78752d4>': Failure()<0xb785928c> 00:27
sjohnson thanks jnthn
jnthn: is there such thing as a List()? 00:28
colomon_ oh cool, zaslon is tracking perl6advent! (if awkwardly...)
I'm still working on the "table of contents" post....
masak yes, moritz_ added perl6advent earlier today.
zaslon lolperl6adventhazblogged! perl6advent++ 'Failure()<0xb785efe0>': Failure()<0xb7846fd0> 00:30
colomon_ It's short, but it's there now. (Must read to my boy a bit.) 00:32
I'm going to tackle the day 1 "How do you get rakudo working?" post in a bit.
zaslon lolperl6adventhazblogged! perl6advent++ 'Perl 6 Advent Calendar': perl6advent.wordpress.com/2009/12/0...-calendar/ 00:33
colomon_ btw, feel free to suggest changes or just make them if you have permission. :)
jnthn sjohnson: List is how you refer to the type object in the namespace. List() is how it stringifies. List(...) would be a coercion, but that's NYI. 00:37
sjohnson jnthn: my reason for curisoity is because i don't see pick and sort in that array method list
jnthn sjohnson: I was gonna say "yeah, they're inherited" but...hm. 00:38
.methods without :local is meant to show the whole load up the tree.
sjohnson hmm 00:43
not sure how that is accomplished
*scratches head*
jnthn rakudo: class A { method foo { } }; class B { method bar { } }; say B.^methods>>.name.join()
p6eval rakudo 7ce13d: ( no output ) 00:44
jnthn offs
I'd expect that to start "bar foo ..." anyway.
masak jnthn: it starts 'bar' locally, but 'foo' comes much later. 00:47
colomon_ jnthn: do the normal instructions for building rakudo work on windows? 00:48
jnthn masak: orly? 00:51
colomon_: Should.
masak oh, wait.
jnthn colomon_: Just remember to invoke make with the right name.
masak it should be 'B is A'... :) 00:52
colomon_ jnthn: what compiler would that be using?
jnthn masak: oh!
duh yes :-)
colomon_: I build with MS VC++
masak right. 'bar', 'foo'. :)
jnthn colomon_: e.g. the Visual C++ compiler
masak: Yeah, sorry. :-)
Perl 6 ain't *that* magical.
masak jnthn: apparently, I accepted it without reflecting. :) 00:53
jnthn masak: It *is* nearly 2am. ;-)
masak that doesn't say much. :) I'm not even a little tired... 00:54
00:54 pmurias left
jnthn masak: Yes, same. :-/ 00:54
nbrown colmon_: I use mingw on windows and that works too
jnthn masak: I gotta get up at 7am-ish for a flyg on Wednesday too.
masak a fokker? :) 00:55
jnthn I fokking hope not. :-P
colomon_ nbrown: Thanks.
jnthn masak: Ryanair don't have any of those.
masak maybe just as well. 00:56
jnthn masak: Just aluminum tubes painted blue and yellow inside with non-reclining seats and 2,50 EUR coffee.
nbrown colomon_: no problem, just thought more solutions is better
colomon_ nbrown: absolutely. there's more than one way...
jnthn masak: Yeah. I did a Fokker once.
masak: It was...an experience. :-)
masak it was a pleasant experience, my fokker I mean.
jnthn masak: I didn't especially dislike it. Sadly, every time I fly these days I seem to get more nervous about it, not less. :-/ 00:57
Meta-model compositon papers seem to help though. :-)
masak :)
jnthn Ooh...I should print another @interesting-paper off for the journey on Wed. 00:58
masak oh, definitely.
jnthn Or maybe 2 given I've got 4-5 hours of train afterwards.
masak for great justice.
01:06 cdarroch left 01:09 colomon_ left 01:15 cognominal joined 01:19 colomon joined
masak 'night. :) 01:22
01:22 masak left
colomon 'night. 01:22
phenny colomon: 30 Nov 15:18Z <masak> tell colomon that it may be a good idea to write an 0th blog post today, which introduces the whole Perl 6 Advent Calendar endeavour to the world.
colomon: 30 Nov 15:59Z <Wolfman2000> tell colomon username for wordpress is wolfman2000. I don't know if he got it previously due to the evil PEER
colomon apparently masak and I were thinking along the same lines... :) 01:23
01:26 agentzh joined
jnthn "Who is peer and why won't he stop resetting my connection?" 01:26
colomon Wow, cygwin takes forever to download their git.... 01:27
01:28 justatheory left 01:30 justatheory joined
jnthn oh noes, not cygwin. 01:31
sjohnson heh
i'm not a huge cygwin fan either
i think it is very clunky
colomon I've long considered it essential for working on Windows boxes. 01:38
But it sucks on Vista, which was part of my reason for getting my first Mac this time last year...
SirKay well there's your problem 01:39
you were using vista
colomon SirKay: Unfortunately, as a programmer who has to support Windows machines professionally, I cannot ignore it forever. 01:40
SirKay oh my.
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jnthn *just* managed to avoid Vista. 01:40
colomon But I couldn't bear the thought of my main laptop being a Vista machine, and erasing it and installing XP seemed a little past its sell-by date. So I got a Mac instead. 01:41
SirKay meanwhile, I've been talking to a more experienced programmer, and he suggests that as a beginner, I should do Python instead.
colomon jnthn: I just tried to build rakudo using the standard instructions, and the --gen-parrot phase blew up on me.
jnthn colomon: On cygwin?
colomon As far as I know, I just used cygwin for git.
jnthn oh. 01:42
arnsholt SirKay: Perl vs. Python is largely a matter of preference
jnthn The msys git port works wonderfully for me. ;-)
And doesn't need cygwin.
colomon That system's Perl is active state.
jnthn colomon: How did she blow?
colomon: Yeah, that's what I have too...
arnsholt Some people prefer Python, others prefer Perl (I think you can guess where this channel stands =)
SirKay but hypothetically, if I did Python, what would I have for support? Perl has this channel, and it has perlmonks, and whatnot.
jnthn The Perl community is one of the things that keeps me going, that's for sure. :-) 01:43
SirKay my Perl-Fu is weak but not nonexistent. On the other hand, my Python-Fu is nonexistent.
arnsholt TBH, I don't know. Being a Perl guy, I've not paid that much attention to Python
lisppaste3 colomon pasted "How she blew" at paste.lisp.org/display/91315
jnthn SirKay: In many ways, Python and Perl are philosophically different. I can understand how they fit easier for different people. 01:44
arnsholt As jnthn points out, the main differences between Perl and Python are the philosophy behind it, and the syntax 01:45
SirKay I'm simply concerned with no longer sucking at programming and starting to make nontrivial programs.
jnthn SirKay: If you like what you've seen of Perl so far and it seems to fit for you so far, keep exploring. It's not always an easy language to learn, but I'm very glad I made the effort.
SirKay I could go either way, to be honest. 01:46
jnthn SirKay: Sure. And you should see which fits best for you and go for it. TBH, once you learn enough langauges, they all start looking the same anyway. Apart from Haskell. That always looks insane. :-) 01:48
arnsholt Lisp is kinda funky as well =)
jnthn (And when I say "looking the same" I really mean, you start seeing that "oh, that's just a lambda" and "that's just a class declaration" and "that's just a loop"...) 01:49
Well, I do anyway. :-)
SirKay I've been starting and stopping for 16 years.
jnthn But maybe the compiler writer in me just wants to deconstruct all languages into their primitives. ;-)
arnsholt jnthn: I'm not a compiler writer (not much of one, anyways =) and I have the same experience
Except, of course, for Haskell which melts my brain =) 01:50
jnthn arnsholt: lol
arnsholt: I did sorta figure it was likely a fairly shared experience.
SirKay: I guess I sorta started 16 years ago and got hooked somehow. 01:51
arnsholt Yeah. People who say Perl is hard can just sod off. If you wanna talk hard, let's talk Haskell =)
SirKay it's a shame, really.
if I had applied myself and started learning properly in all that time
I could be a computing demigod now
arnsholt (I really would like to learn Haskell though. The concept is cool)
SirKay Perl is not really any harder than anything else. In fact, I'm one of those freaks who loves that you denote scalars with a dollar sign. 01:52
jnthn SirKay: To be honest, the longer I do it, the more I realize it's good to have a mixture of things in my life.
SirKay so yeah...I'll do either perl or python, I just want whatever will give me the quickest route to programming power. 01:53
That is a vain and callow desire, but yeah.
jnthn SirKay: Well, I guess you mainly want to get there so you can Build Cool Stuff. :-)
Which sure isn't a vain and callow desire.
jnthn loves seeing cool tech in whatever language. 01:54
SirKay are you a troper?
jnthn ...troper?
I guess that means no. :-)
SirKay hmm, I guess not.
jnthn If I have to ask.
SirKay tvtropes.org
though the site is down now.
But alas. Yes, I want to get results now, since I've been on and off for 16 years with no progress, with only myself to blame. 01:55
jnthn SirKay: Heh. I just noticed...tvtropes.org (now up again) runs pmwiki! 02:05
SirKay orly
jnthn yarly
SirKay nowai
colomon Quick, gang, a cool one line p6 script? 02:06
SirKay but yeah...uh...
jnthn SirKay: ...you fit in hear pretty well, don't you? :-)
lolspeaking fluently already. :-)
SirKay if I could prevail upon you to share with me some cool secret that is the key to everything, if you know it, I'd like to know.
I try.
02:07 hercynium left
jnthn colomon: role Pint[::Beverage] { }; class Beer { method drink { say "glug" } }; my Pint of Beer @beers = Pint[Beer] xx 4; @beers>>.drink; 02:08
02:09 bryan[c1] joined
jnthn colomon: Parallel dispatch, parametric roles, classes, types, repetition operator... ;-) 02:09
colomon I should have specified "that runs on rakudo-master". :)
still, awesome code there!
bryan[c1] when i try to run a perl script in notepad off my desktop it says the file cant be found, why is that?
could it be my shebang line? 02:10
jnthn colomon: Er. I think that (or something very close to it) already does. ;-)
colomon Method 'drink' not found for invocant of class '' 02:11
jnthn colomon: Oh.
my Pint of Beer @beers = Pint[Beer].new xx 4; # forgot the .new call - needed to pun the role
bryan[c1]: Hi. Most likely you're interested in Perl 5 rather than Perl 6, so this isn't *quite* the place to ask. :-) On Windows, I dobut it's the shebang line.
Since those don't mean much to Windows in general.
bryan[c1] i got banned from #perl for asking a question and some dude started an argument 02:12
and of course, the n00b that just came in is always wrong
jnthn bryan[c1]: *sigh* Sorry to hear that. :-(
bryan[c1] but on any note
jnthn bryan[c1]: How are you trying to run the script?
colomon rakudo: role Pint[::Beverage] { }; class Beer { method drink { say "glug" } }; my Pint of Beer @beers = Pint[Beer].new xx 4; @beers>>.drink;
bryan[c1] cmd 02:13
im in the desktop directory and everything
p6eval rakudo 7ce13d: ( no output )
bryan[c1] activeperl installed
jnthn Just typing "perl thescript.pl"?
bryan[c1] yeah
jnthn Where thescript.pl is the name of your script?
bryan[c1] weird right?
maybe i need to reinstall activeperl
jnthn Does just "perl -v" give you any output?
bryan[c1] yeah
sjohnson bryan[c1]: i would recommend Strawberry Perl over ActivePerl 02:14
jnthn bryan[c1]: Something like "This is perl v..."
Hmm. Does it say what file is not found? :-/
bryan[c1] yeah it worken jnthn
no such file or directory LOL 02:15
jnthn OK, so it's in your path alright.
dir myscript.pl shows it?
(where myscript.pl is file name of your script...)
Starting cmd doesn't actually dump you into your desktop directly by default, you'd need a "cd Desktop" first to do that...
bryan[c1] oh well i did that 02:16
im not THAT much of a n00b
jnthn :-)
bryan[c1] C:\Documents and Settings\Owner\Desktop>
jnthn Hey, me either, but we can all make mistakes now and then. :-)
OK, in that case...yes, it's...odd.
SirKay hmm. 02:17
bryan[c1] kk ill un install AP and install straw
jnthn k
bryan[c1] only answer i suppose
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SirKay jnthn 02:19
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jnthn SirKay: No, I don't really think there's some secret "key to everything". :-) 02:20
SirKay Okay. But perhaps something short of that, then. 02:21
jnthn Find topics and niches that you enjoy and pursue them. Accept that computing is too big to understand everything out there, so get a sense of the bigger picture and then specialize in what you like doing most. Expect to write code now and look back at it in a year and wonder what you were thinking - and realize that means you've learned and accept it as a good thing. Accept that some things are Just Hard and don't feel bad about finding them so. Look at w 02:25
SirKay Look at w
jnthn Look at what others have done to learn from it rather than re-inventing wheels, unless all the existing wheels for the task at hand are square-shaped, in which case make a round one. 02:26
SirKay Well.
I don't want to be one of those people who thinks they're a good programmer and just more or less cribs the entire CPAN.
bryan[c1] well its there for a reason 02:27
jnthn SirKay: Knowing when to re-use what's out there, and when to make your own thing, is a difficult - but IMHO important - skill.
bryan[c1] 2(jnthn2): i installed stawberry but its still not working
jnthn bryan[c1]: What's in your script?
bryan[c1] just the shebang and print hello world 02:28
well print "hello world";
SirKay I understand. I'm just saying a lot of people just write a little code, append some cpan libraries, and call it good
jnthn SirKay: And if it just solved their problem, why isn't it good? :-)
bryan[c1] then thats what your code is sirkay, you're not expected to 'reinvent the wheel', as he just said above.
SirKay it's good, but it doesn't make you good. 02:29
bryan[c1] its still YOUR code
SirKay if that makes sense.
bryan[c1] but finding the ins and outs and makes modules is advanced stuff
SirKay Forgive me for sounding elitist about this, but...one of the main reasons I've redoubled my resolve to learn is in response to people who think they're great programmers even though much of their shit is trivial.
jnthn SirKay: I dunno. I've seen plenty of bad reinventions of things that there are already good solutions out there. :-) 02:30
SirKay I'm sure that happens, but you know what I mean.
jnthn bryan[c1]: OK, I remain...puzzled.
SirKay People who claim to be "senior cadre of the internet" for no real reason, or "core linux developers" even when they don't have a single line of code in the kernel. 02:31
jnthn bryan[c1]: Maybe try and pull out the shebang line?
Just in case.
bryan[c1] k
the whole file is : print "hello";
on one line
jnthn Sure, that should be fine.
bryan[c1] nope 02:32
SirKay however, I was rightly admonished, by the person who recommended I learn Python instead of Perl, to not focus so negatively, so let's just say that right now my goal is to be able to make, at the very least, nontrivial programs. ideally I will make programs people actually use and are also nontrivial.
but nontrivial is good for a start.
jnthn OK, if there's no shebang line and that's all in the file, I guess it ain't finding the file you're trying to run. Notepad didn't by any chance follow it's annoying habbit of adding .txt to the filename when you saved it? 02:33
bryan[c1] no its test.pl
SirKay Am I making sense?
bryan[c1] sirkay, using modules isnt against any moral rules of programming
just use them when you need to, no one really cares.
jnthn SirKay: It's fine to want to make nontrivial programs. It's also fine to use existing libraries to help you make them. 02:34
bryan[c1] whats with the looking down on module use?
when you get deep into programming you're going to thank god for them
jnthn I sure do. 02:35
SirKay okay I have made myself misunderstood.
bryan[c1] DBI, LWP, any module with file handling
SirKay I am not saying "don't use modules" or "don't use cpan." that would be dumb.
I am saying "it would be nice if people actually understood what went into those modules and could recreate them on their own later on"
bryan[c1] you're wondering where the skill has gone since they exist 02:36
you can look at the source code for all of them
SirKay yes, I'm talking about the people who don't.
bryan[c1] well, they're thinking "all i need to learn is the syntax, i dont need to know how it works"
in that case, they're probably just using perl for a specific reason
or they are just a weird perl programmer
SirKay and that's why I don't really consider them programmers.
bryan[c1] then so be it 02:37
you're only entitled to your own opinion
SirKay I agree with jnthn that improperly reinventing the wheel is a waste of time at best
nbrown SirKay: I think that's fine if the scope of that person's interest is to only get past their problem, but you seem more interested in learning how to program and how things work 02:38
arnsholt ISO annoys me. They've got all these nice "open" standards. Except they cost a small fortune to get
SirKay now wait. bryan, what is the problem? I'm not talking about you or anyone in the channel here.
nbrown SirKay: in that case, the best way is to use what you need, write what you can and learn from both as best you can
SirKay indeed nbrown.
jnthn Nicely put. :-)
bryan[c1] with all do respect sirkay, you turned it into a discussion about programming into a spouting of your opinions
sorry that didnt make much sense 02:39
im kinda high
but that aside, i still stand by my point.
SirKay I could have said something snide, but I didn't.
jnthn SirKay: Seeking to understand stuff is fine, and a Good Thing. Please understand that people getting their job done by just using stuff is also fine. :-)
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bryan[c1] (SirKay) and that's why I don't really consider them programmers. 02:39
SirKay bryan, I admit that I sort of got on my soapbox there.
but there is a good reason for it. 02:40
bryan[c1] they dont consider YOU a programmer, you're whining about already created code
02:40 Exodist left
bryan[c1] try coding in c++ without the standard library 02:40
SirKay Hmm.
bryan[c1] have fun with that
quantumEd standard libraries suck
nbrown jnthn: dumb question, but where did the setting go in the ng branch? 02:41
I'm just looking at it for the first time and feel a little lost
SirKay Well man, as you say, you are entitled to your opinion.
bryan[c1] thats not my opinion
i dont have an opinion on you
heres what im saying 02:42
if you were to have this conversation about how modules are for n00bs with some experienced programmers, they would laugh at you behind your back as soon as you walked away
if they werent nice people at least
SirKay You misunderstood my point completely.
bryan[c1] no i didnt 02:43
im just trying to shorten it
SirKay My point is not, and would never be "modules are for noobs."
As you say, that would be like coding in C without libraries. 02:44
bryan[c1] i know that, it was a shortened version of your point
a generalized one
SirKay Except it isn't.
bryan[c1] you don't understand MY point, thats the problem
im not saying you're wrong
stop being so technical
i dont talk that way in chat rooms
jnthn ng_feed: It's in core now 02:45
SirKay shrugs.
bryan[c1] you think modules are for people that dont really care HOW it works, but just want to get a task done (i.e. not 'real' programmers, as you stated above)
jnthn gah
nbrown: it's in src/core/ now
02:45 Exodist_ left
SirKay And that is wrong. 02:45
bryan[c1] in more detail, people that dont look at the source of the module and understand whats really going on
02:46 Exodist joined
bryan[c1] you're saying that only mechanics should drive cars because they understand how it works 02:46
jnthn nbrown: Renamed it to fit a bit more with spec naming and STD...
bryan[c1] im not wrong, that was totally your demeanor this whole time, SirKay
nbrown jnthn: thanks, I felt a little lost poking around
SirKay Whatever. I'm dropping the argument. 02:47
bryan[c1] just use the modules
if you want to know how it works, look at the source code
jnthn needs to sleep...it's late
02:52 JimmyZ left 02:55 Wolfman2000 joined
Wolfman2000 ...alright, 11 hours then. 02:55
phenny Wolfman2000: 30 Nov 17:07Z <colomon_> tell Wolfman2000 For some stupid reason, I need the e-mail address you used to subscribe to wordpress, rather than your wordpress id.
Wolfman2000 colomon: you there?
02:55 seano` joined
colomon yes. 02:55
just putting finishing touches on a "how to get rakudo" post. 02:56
Wolfman2000 So the rakudo post wll be the first gift then?
colomon yes.
Wolfman2000 Guess that means I'm getting bumped to Thursday at least
colomon Do you have a post ready to go as well?
Wolfman2000 colomon: just got online when not dealing with classes. 02:57
I was going to plan my stuff now actually.
colomon understood.
Wolfman2000 I'll be able to juggle gifts with my finals...they're all take home this semester
I know I earlier claimed the idea of multi subs with constraints...I'm wondering if Types should be introduced first before we go into multi subs and constraints. 02:58
There should be some logic and planning to the calendar.
colomon agreed that a general notion of easier to harder and building upon earlier posts would be a good thing. 02:59
Wolfman2000 ...now's a good of time as any to plan this.
If this is on the pugs repo, I think I can commit to it.
...man, wish masak was here. This way we can plan this better. 03:00
colomon our notes (what there are) are there.
Yeah, planning for more than a day or two will probably go better in the morning, when everyone else is awake again. 03:01
what is the e-mail address you used to create your wordpress account? just the id isn't good enough for something reason. 03:02
Wolfman2000 colomon: thought I /msg'ed you it
guess it didn't take
colomon it did.
I just completely failed to notice.
one sec.
bingo. you're on it now. 03:04
03:05 seano` left
Wolfman2000 colomon: got the email. Nice greet message. "If you don't care, just ignore this email. :)" 03:07
colomon :)