sena_kun AlexDaniel++ 00:00
sena_kun haz some sleep 00:01
AlexDaniel sena_kun: here's the final version: 00:02
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AlexDaniel ah no, damn 00:03
text-align: justify; went wrong here
ok whatever, use the previous one without justify, I already spent too much time on this :D
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tbrowder .tell jmerelo wordpress is not showing my latest version!!!! wp sucks rocks 00:04
tellable6 tbrowder, I'll pass your message to jmerelo
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tbrowder .tell jmerelo it looks like it's finally taken my update-whew! 00:12
tellable6 tbrowder, I'll pass your message to jmerelo
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mister_flash hi 04:38
What is happening to Perl ???
AlexDaniel mister_flash: seems to be going strong 04:43
mister_flash: perl5 keeps improving and perl6 (now Raku) is getting its own identity :) 04:44
mister_flash So perl6 does not exist yet ? 04:45
perl 5 is the latest perl version ?
AlexDaniel mister_flash: first release of raku (back when it was still called perl6) was in 2015 04:46
mister_flash So perl6 appellation should be ban 04:47
AlexDaniel mister_flash: sorry, what do you mean? 04:48
mister_flash The word "perl6" should be remove everywhere since it causes misunderstandings. 04:50
AlexDaniel mister_flash: yes, correct, that's what we've been doing :)
mister_flash nice. 04:51
AlexDaniel as for perl5, the latest version seems to be v5.30.1 released just a month ago
mister_flash I wonder if Perl will not be deprecated. 04:53
AlexDaniel I don't think perl5 should be deprecated. It is nice and it keeps getting better. 04:54
Raku is a separate language now, yes it is very inspired by perl5 but it doesn't attempt to deprecate perl5
mister_flash but It will shade i 04:56
AlexDaniel I hope it will shade other languages equally :) 04:57
mister_flash If it could shade Python it will be more than a dream 04:58
but I no longer dream 04:59
Xliff Yeah. It has a long road ahead if it is to do that.
AlexDaniel well, I personally already use Raku for writing things for which I would have used Python if Raku didn't exist
Xliff Getting the language bindings and attaining some percentage of module parity will be a big help. 05:00
AlexDaniel I understand it's subjective, but it's already the case for me
Xliff: just a single web framework can do wonders :) 05:03
Xliff: Red seems to be on its way so that's one missing piece done
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Kaiepi >v5.30.1 05:07
shit the book i got to learn it a while ago is way out of date then
AlexDaniel, what are some of the other missing pieces? are they all in the most wanted modules repo? 05:11
Xliff AlexDaniel: Red also has a long way to go.
But hey, Raku isn't even 5, yet.
I think we're doing quite well.
AlexDaniel Xliff: I'm not sure. I think if someone started using Red seriously it'll get ready very quickly 05:12
so IMO it's ready to be used by somebody :)
Xliff AlexDaniel: Still doesn't cover much of the use cases I'd absolutely need it to cover before I'd use it. 05:13
But it's getting there.
He's working on joins, though. That's a big step.
AlexDaniel Kaiepi: I'm not sure, actually. We have Cro, we have Red, someone just needs to actually make a web framework 05:14
Kaiepi Net::Telnet's probably the closest thing i have to a module that could sway people to use raku since my goal is to make it even better than any existing telnet library 05:15
Xliff AlexDaniel: Um. I thought we had a Web framework. I know Cro could be used to build one, but wasn't there another one? 05:16
AlexDaniel Xliff: no
Xliff Bailador? 05:17
AlexDaniel it's dead
Xliff What? When?
AlexDaniel honestly I don't remember it ever not being dead… 05:19
Xliff Hrm. Better to pick that up than re-invent the wheel?
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Xliff Honestly, I'd need to see a spec for a decent web framework and try my hand at it. 05:20
AlexDaniel maybe I'm wrong about Bailador 05:22
thing is, I tried it in 2017 or maybe earlier
it did the job, a little bit, but otherwise was dead :)
but now I look at the commit history and there was a lot of stuff going on in 2017-2018 05:23
as for reworking Bailador instead of starting from scratch, I don't think it makes sense 05:24
but please feel free to :)
nowadays you'd probably start with cro and red
mister_flash Mojolicious is actually good, someone could port it on Raku and add some things 05:25
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rindolf AlexDaniel: hi, sup? 06:57
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Geth doc: c7ec7cd62e | (JJ Merelo)++ | doc/Language/unicode.pod6
Adds version of Unicode supported

Refs #3104
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ufobat is Array.clone() supposed to clone multi dimensional arrays deeply? It seems it isn't. But I would assume it should, since you can do a @array[1;2;3] aka It does not feel like it is an Array of Arrays 10:48
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Kaiepi m: class Foo { has $!foo is readonly; method set-foo($!foo) { } }; say 1 11:31
camelia Potential difficulties:
useless use of 'is readonly' on $!foo
at <tmp>:1
------> 3class Foo { has $!foo 7⏏5is readonly; method set-foo($!foo) { } }
Kaiepi m: class Foo { has $.foo is readonly; method set-foo($!foo) { } }; say 1
camelia Nil
Kaiepi m: class Foo { has $.foo is readonly; method set-foo($foo) { $!foo = $foo } }; say 1
camelia 1
Kaiepi what does readonly actually prevent you from doing?
s/readonly/is readonly/ 11:32
the docs say it only applies to the container and not the value itself, but shouldn't $!foo = $foo throw if that's the case? 11:36
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lizmat ufobat: I think .clone is defined to be shallow, with optional args for alternate values for public attributes at the top level 11:40
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Kaiepi oh, it doesn't look like this trait is fully implemented for attributes 11:53
it sets its $!ro attribute when it gets applied, but nothing uses this, not even its own readonly method
apart from its default_to_rw method ig 11:56
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lizmat shouldn't "is read-only" only apply to public attributes ? 11:58
Kaiepi aren't public attributes already readonly by default? 12:00
m: class Foo { has $.foo }; say Foo.^get_attribute_for_usage('$!foo').get_value(Foo).readonly 12:02
camelia Cannot look up attributes in a Foo type object
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
Kaiepi m: class Foo { has $.foo }; say^get_attribute_for_usage('$!foo').get_value(Foo).readonly
camelia Cannot look up attributes in a Foo type object
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
Kaiepi m: class Foo { has $.foo }; say^get_attribute_for_usage('$!foo').get_value(
camelia No such method 'readonly' for invocant of type 'Any'
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
Kaiepi m: class Foo { has $.foo }; say^get_attribute_for_usage('$!foo').readonly
camelia True
Kaiepi m: class Foo { has $.foo }; say (my $attr =^get_attribute_for_usage('$!foo')).^get_attribute_for_usage('$!ro').get_value($attr) 12:03
camelia No such method 'get_value' for invocant of type 'BOOTSTRAPATTR'
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
Kaiepi m: use nqp; class Foo { has $.foo }; say nqp::getattr((my $attr =^get_attribute_for_usage('$!foo')), $attr.WHAT, '$!ro')
camelia P6opaque: no such attribute '$!ro' on type Attribute in a Scalar when trying to get a value
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
Kaiepi m: use nqp; class Foo { has $.foo }; say nqp::getattr((my $attr :=^get_attribute_for_usage('$!foo')), $attr.WHAT, '$!ro') 12:04
camelia Cannot find method 'gist' on 'int': no method cache and no .^find_method
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
Kaiepi m: use nqp; class Foo { has $.foo }; say nqp::getattr_i((my $attr :=^get_attribute_for_usage('$!foo')), $attr.WHAT, '$!ro')
camelia 0
Kaiepi huh
m: use nqp; class Foo { has $.foo }; say nqp::getattr_i((my $attr :=^get_attribute_for_usage('$!foo')), $attr.WHAT, '$!rw') 12:06
camelia 0
Kaiepi ig they're "readonly" in that they're not rw by default
m: class Foo is rw { has $.foo is readonly; method set-foo($!foo) { } }; 1 12:09
camelia ( no output )
Kaiepi m: class Foo is rw { has $.foo is readonly; method set-foo($foo) { $!foo = $foo } }; 1
camelia ( no output )
Kaiepi m: class Foo is rw { has $.foo; method set-foo($foo) { $!foo = $foo } }; 1 12:10
camelia ( no output )
Kaiepi m: class Foo { has $.foo is readonly; method set-foo($foo) { $!foo = $foo } }; BEGIN Foo.^set_rw; 1
camelia ( no output )
Kaiepi m: class Foo { has $.foo is readonly; method set-foo($foo) { $!foo = $foo } }; BEGIN Foo.^set_rw; (my $foo =^get_attribute_for_usage('$!foo').set_value($foo, 1) 12:12
camelia ( no output )
Kaiepi even in the one case i can find where $!ro is used in any way, it doesn't seem to do anything
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Kaiepi wait i was missing `is rw` on the last couple tests 12:15
nvm i forgot about the BEGIN that sets what `is rw` sets 12:16
there aren't any tests for using this trait with attributes in roast either, so ig it just isn't supported rn 12:27
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Kaiepi ohh, i was testing the one case where it does get used wrong 12:37
m: class Foo is rw { has $.foo }; say (try = 1) // 0 12:38
camelia 1
Kaiepi m: class Foo is rw { has $.foo is readonly }; say (try = 1) // 0
camelia 0
Geth problem-solving/CoC: 48f4c51ebe | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | solutions/meta/
Rework the "Responsibility" section
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Kaiepi ok i was definitely misunderstanding what the trait's for after reading through the design docs 13:08
i was expecting it to work like ::= would if it were implemented
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AlexDaniel rindolf: o/ 13:37
rindolf AlexDaniel: sup? 13:42
AlexDaniel I woke up :) 13:45
chloekek was thinking about implementing symlinkfs; a FUSE file system that stores all data in symlinks, to trick du 13:47
du reports 0 for symlinks, but they can store like a kilobyte of data. :)
AlexDaniel m: say "a\x[E01E8]b\x[E01E9]" 14:01
camelia a󠇨b󠇩
AlexDaniel chloekek: similarly, use variation selectors to mix binary data into text? :) 14:02
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cpan-raku New module released to CPAN! Operator::dB (0.0.95) by 03ALLSOPP 14:20
New module released to CPAN! HTML::BoreDOM (0.0.6) by 03ALLSOPP
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Geth whateverable/master: 5 commits pushed by Altai-man++, (Aleks-Daniel Jakimenko-Aleksejev)++ 15:23
whateverable: f5dcb9b653 | (Aleks-Daniel Jakimenko-Aleksejev)++ | services/whateverable-all.service
Add Sourceable service
whateverable: daf36f299b | (Aleks-Daniel Jakimenko-Aleksejev)++ | xbin/Sourceable.p6
Make Sourceable executable
sena_kun \o/ 15:31
tellable6 2019-12-01T11:03:29Z #raku-dev <jmerelo> sena_kun I've done a bit of editing here and there. Other than that, perfect!
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stoned75 I was looking for WHAT method (or whatever) definition. I found a method definition in rakudo/src/core.c/operators.pm6, which leads me to MoarVM/src/6model/bootstrap.c:bootstrap_KnowHOW(). Am I on the right track ? 15:47
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stoned75 then I wonder why operators.pm6 has a comment saying "XXX Wants to be macros when we have them." when rakudo/docs/ChangeLog says for 'New in 2011.09': "+ .WHAT and friends as macros" 15:52
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sena_kun stoned75 what do you want to do with WHAT? It is Rakudo-specific thing, maybe you want something else? What's the task? 15:58
stoned75 eh. only curiosity :) 15:59
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stoned75 also, doc/Language/objects.pod6 says "... by calling the WHAT method, which is actually a macro in method form" so I admit I am a bit confused 16:05
AlexDaniel m: Int.^name 16:08
camelia ( no output )
AlexDaniel m: say Int.^name
camelia Int
AlexDaniel m: say 42.^name
camelia Int
ufobat shallow clones suck :-/ 16:09
Geth problem-solving/CoC: e2b18bf640 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | solutions/meta/
Make discrimination clause more specific
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chloekek p6: constant 無 = Mu; sub f(無 $x) { say $x }; f(1 & 2) 16:28
camelia all(1, 2)
lizmat m: say "無".uninames 16:29
lizmat hmmm.. :-)
ah, nothing! 16:30
chloekek It’s the Japanese spelling of the term where the name Mu comes from according to the docs.
sena_kun - what is 無? - ah, nevermind, it's nothing. 16:32
lizmat is there an ideograph for nothing + 1 ? 16:33
chloekek constant 任意 = Any; sub f(任意 $x) { say $x }; f(1 & 2) 16:36
evalable6 1
chloekek Bad name. 16:38
lizmat I was thinking of adding another easter egg for it :-) 16:41
sena_kun m: constant 何なり = Any; sub f(何なり $x) { say $x }; f(1 & 2) 16:43
camelia 1
lizmat m: my $beer = "🍺"; $beer++; dd $beer 16:44
camelia Str $beer = "🍻"
chloekek does use 「」 very frequently.
Also qq「」 for interpolation. 16:45
Currently programming in Perl 5 though. 16:51
No such goodies :(
lizmat m: my $perl = "🐪"; $perl++; say $perl # so glad we didn't turn that into a butterfly 16:54
camelia 🐫
chloekek lmao
m: my $perl = "🐫"; $perl++; say $perl 16:56
camelia 🐫🐪
chloekek m: my $perl = "🐫"; $perl++; $perl++; say $perl 16:57
camelia 🐫🐫
chloekek m: my $perl = "🐫"; $perl++; $perl++; $perl++; say $perl
camelia 🐫🐪🐪
chloekek Not quite base 2 it seems.
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lizmat it is if you consider "🐪" and "🐫" one ? 17:04
m: my $perl = "🐪"; say :2(($perl++).trans("🐫🐪" => "10")) for ^10 17:05
camelia 0
chloekek p6: my $perl = „🐫“; for 1 .. 10 { say $perl++ } 17:06
camelia 🐫
chloekek It never flips the initial digit.
kurahaupo looks like counting in binary with 🐫 == 1, 🐪 == 0 ? 17:07
lizmat it does from 0 to 1
and in all other cases, the first is the most significant, so always a 1
chloekek p6: my $perl = „🐫“; for 1 .. 10 { ($perl++).flip.say } 17:08
camelia 🐫
chloekek p6: my $perl = „🐫“; for 1 .. 10 { ($perl++).substr(1).flip.say } 17:09
chloekek p6: my $perl = „🐫“; for 1 .. 10 { ($perl++).substr(1).say }
chloekek p6: my $perl = „🐫“; for 1 .. 10 { ($perl++).say } 17:10
camelia 🐫
chloekek Oh yeah of course the MSb is always 1 lol otherwise it would not show up.
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chloekek Welp. 17:12
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.oO( chloekek made me do it: )
chloekek XD
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chloekek Now make a rosettacode exercise and show off how consise it is in Raku 17:42
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ufobat m: my @a[3;3]; say @a.clone.shape 18:52
camelia (3 3)
ufobat ^ lizmat
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jmerelo Thanks, lizmat, for posting the advent calendar entry in Reddit 19:05
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jmerelo Everyone else, comment, check, spread the word, check out the Advent Calendar 19:06
In ~ 4 hours, a fresh new entry by tmtvl
El_Che jmerelo++ 19:10
tbrowder El_Che: thnx! 19:12
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jmerelo tbrowder: it's getting a few visits, the problem is the old calendar is getting even more right now... 19:18
So we really need to generate some buzz about it: spread it over email groups, social media, and all over...
moritz I'll post a quick note on the old one that there is a new site 19:20
jmerelo great, moritz. Thanks. 19:21
Please also accept the invitation for the new site, and connect it when you do with raku_news, please. 19:22
patrickb jmerelo: Is there a reason we don't try to get a stackoverflow alias perl6 -> raku up? I seem to recall you were on this some time i the past, not sure though... 19:24
jmerelo patrickb: I requested write permission to do it by hand, and got burned, first
patrickb: second, we can create an alias, but there's some numbers involved, I think there must be a balance between old and new name, somethign like 30% difference 19:25
patrickb: and then we need 10k karma, but after the last recomputation of karma, I can do it.
patrickb: let me see if I can do it now, but I think I will not be able 19:26
now I remember 19:27
We can't create a synonym for perl6 because it's a "version specific synonim" 19:28
I guess it's like creating a "debian7" synonyn for whatever, like "sid"
Let me try in the other direction
moritz jmerelo: do you know where I can do the twitter thing you mentioned? 19:29
jmerelo patrickb: no, I can't: "Can't create synonym; the 'perl6' tag appears more than 1.25 times the 'raku' tag"
patrickb jmerelo: Ugh... that sounds like it shouldn't apply to our case. The 6 in Perl6 is no version number. Should I try to bug some SO staff about it?
jmerelo So we need to delete many perl6 tags, and add many raku tags
patrickb: that's apparently the only way to do it. 19:30
Grinnz you should be able to get a moderator to do it
moritz ah, 19:31
jmerelo moritz: great. Thanks!
patrickb I think a question is the way to go. I'll create a question. 19:34
jmerelo patrickb: good luck 19:35
patrickb: and thanks.
patrickb There already is a respective question: 19:36
Please up vote!
El_Che favorited and upvoted 19:39
jmerelo patrickb: the thing is, "synonyms" does not quite reflect what StackOverflow does. It's not symmetrical, for instance. 19:40
If we suggest perl6 as a synonym for raku, every time someone tags something with raku, the system will tell them if they are sure about that. 19:41
What we want is raku as a synonym for perl6. Which we can't do due to their "no synonyms for versions" policy.
patrickb jmerelo: I think it's the other way round. 19:42
jmerelo patrickb: hm
El_Che If someone has time, please try the tar.gz relocable install of rakudo. It's a new feature and I think it's a killer one. So please test it:
(there is also a 32-bit version if someone is running 32-bit linux: 19:43
patrickb El_Che: You are doing relocatable builds? - Great! I was just about starting to do those my self. (literally now)
Grinnz jmerelo: a moderator can make it the correct direction regardless, afaik
jmerelo patrickb: here's the list of synonyms and "targets" 19:44
El_Che patrickb: yes, I started from your notes!
jmerelo patrickb: so what we want is a target raku for the synonym perl6... So right, we need to create perl6 as a synonym for raku. 19:45
In that case, what we need is 1. Delete perl6 tags, add raku tags 2. Suggest perl6 as a synonym 3. Vote. Moderator might be faster, but it's still doable.
So go back to your old questions and retag them, and if you've got the privs, do that to other questions too. 19:46
patrickb jmerelo: I thinkg the meta question I linked above is the way to go. We just need a moderator to have a look at it. It already has the 'support' tag added to it, so I guess upvoting and waiting is all we can do.
jmerelo: Just as you say. :-)
jmerelo patrickb: not all... we can still re-tag questions and then we won't need moderators.
patrickb El_Che: I am rebuilding the website to also offer such precompiled packages as download. Would you be willing to to the builds for that? 19:47
El_Che how many point do we need to be allowed to remove tags? 19:48
patrickb: sure, they are already automated on travis
patrickb Woot!
WRT naming of the files: What I currently have in my changes is rakudo-[version]-[platform]-[architecture].[zip|tar.gz] where platform is [win|macos|linux] and architecture is [x86|x86_64]. 19:50
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patrickb I'd try not to do "32bit" or similar, as that could equally well be arm64 vs arm32 or so. Better be literal about the architecture. 19:51
El_Che: Do you think it's worth it to have the "-nojit" stuff in the name? I'm leaning to the side of "not worth it". 19:53
El_Che from a coherence point of view: no
from a pragmatic yes: it's a warning as "don't be discouraged if it's slow, we know" 19:54
patrickb: the name of the file can change if needed
(I am in the processing of moving the create-pkgs-with-docker part to a different repo (now private) and use that in rakudo-pkg) 19:55
patrickb El_Che: You have a point. Can we decide on a defined format? (The website relies solely on the name to determine what's in it). What about rakudo-[version]-[platform]-[architecture]-[comment].[zip|tar.gz] Where the -[comment] part is optional? 19:56
El_Che works for me
we can do even do without the comment
and point it out in the download page 19:57
I have worked somewhat on the windows variant, but it has been painful
relocatable --> split out pkg creation -> windows -> macox 19:58
1 is done, 2 is written but need finetuning
patrickb El_Che: You even fixed up the raku and raku-debug sym links. :-)
El_Che 3: the situation in windows is bad, so it needs to be done
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El_Che 4: homebrew has regular rakudo next to rakudo-star, so for homebrew users it's ok for now 19:59
patrickb: yeah, my travis builds keep failing :)
patrickb El_Che: Did the windows instructions in work when done manually? 20:00
El_Che well, no because I was doing them on travis 20:01
the idea was that the builds happen there 20:02
but it's a painful process
I used your notes, though
but things that are easy on linux/mac are *hard* on windows 20:03
finding the right make/nmake
from all the soft installed
patrickb I tried doing it in a windows docker container (Microsoft offers those!). But failed because the small containers miss a lot of plumbing...
El_Che running find / -name "*make.exe" on travis runs to find it :)
do those work on travis or other free-for-foss providers? 20:04
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El_Che patrickb: This is as far as I got: 20:05
patrickb El_Che: It requires "Docker for Windows" which requires putting Windows itself in a special mode. In that mode most other virtualization technology doesn't work. So I doubt it it will work on travis.
El_Che patrickb: there is a problem with the right perl to use
patrickb: modules mixed and so on
patrickb: so I need to get some paths right
patrickb: hyperv? 20:06
patrickb hyperv rings a bell. That might be it
El_Che that's a no-no then
travis (beta) and appveyor offer windows support 20:07
I am kind of invested on travis so that's my target nr 1, but others are possible
since I discovered the parallel builds I am happy :)
patrickb I'm all for doing what works. 20:08
El_Che rakudo-pkg does 24 builds for every commit 20:09
so serial building is not an option = after 50min you have an automatic fail
patrickb El_Che: The rakudo builds you linked work on my machine. You saved me the trouble of doing these builds myself (I need them for some work on rakudobrew I'm doing) 20:11
El_Che patrickb++ 20:12
about the format: rakudo-[version]-[platform]-[architecture].[zip|tar.gz]
there is also a revision needed
if we change something besides the release; new version of zef, e.g. 20:13
patrickb What's a revision?
El_Che like packages do:
patrickb like a packaging point release?
El_Che yes
in this case, zef is included 20:14
what if we need to bump zef but rakudo stays on the same version
e.g. a bug or change in the ecosystem
patrickb So that's what the -01 in your filenames was about. 20:15
Makes sense.
El_Che rakudo-2019.11-01-linux-x86_64.tar.gz
is that ok?
patrickb I somehow mourn about small and tidy filenames, but I guess the world is just more complex than I'd like. 20:16
El_Che: Looks good to me.
El_Che it's a tar
it's unpacked to rakudo-2019.11
not the hole name :)
patrickb I've already given it a try. :-) 20:17
Do we expect to have more than 9 packaging point releases? 20:18
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patrickb If no, why the 0? 20:18
El_Che you never know
patrickb We don't do it for normal point releases either. 20:19
El_Che it looks like a revision nr
instead of a regular numer
patrickb I don't have a strong opinion on this one.
Let's keep -01 for now. No need for bikeshedding. 20:20
El_Che changed to the new names: 20:21
20:22 ufobat left
El_Che bintray adapted 20:23
patrickb: adapted the build script for the new name, so we don't forget for the next release :) 20:28
patrickb Great!
20:32 ufobat_ left 21:01 sena_kun left 21:16 sena_kun joined 21:30 Xliff joined
Xliff \o 21:30
tellable6 2019-12-01T13:42:33Z #raku-dev <jnthn> Xliff You'd need to arrange for that to be overridden in the ClassHOW
Xliff m: (43, 82, 0)».so».Int.say 21:31
camelia (1 1 0)
Xliff jnthn: How would I do that?! 21:32
.tell jnthn Alright, how do I make incorporate_multi_candidates overridable in the ClassHOW? 21:37
tellable6 Xliff, I'll pass your message to jnthn
guifa Is there a way to export an enum in or outside of a package based on an input flag? 21:57
I have two sets of enums that have overlapping values, but that might want to be used together occasionally 21:58
err overlapping keys