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timotimo i found out that the mistake that caused my simplify_before branch to fail all the time was in the first commit of the branch m) 02:42
how did i not notice this before?
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timotimo oh yay, nqp on my branch now passes the S05 rakudo spectests 02:57
forcepush! because dalek isn't here to get kicked for it :) 02:59
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timotimo wow, looking for an "e" is about 10x faster than looking for a <[e]> 03:02
oh, huh, it doesn't turn <[e]> into a charrange 03:04
but finding one-entry-char-classes and turning them into literals is totally not a worthwhile optimization
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timotimo nqp: my ($a, $b) := (1, 2); say $a; say $b; 03:16
camelia nqp-parrot: OUTPUT«Confused at line 2, near "my ($a, $b"␤current instr.: 'panic' pc 16262 (gen/parrot/stage2/NQPHLL.pir:6020) (gen/parrot/stage2/NQPHLL.nqp:426)␤»
..nqp-moarvm: OUTPUT«Confused at line 2, near "my ($a, $b"␤panic␤»
..nqp-jvm: OUTPUT«Confused at line 2, near "my ($a, $b"␤ in panic (gen/jvm/stage2/NQPHLL.nqp:379)␤ in comp_unit (gen/jvm/stage2/NQP.nqp:922)␤ in TOP (gen/jvm/stage2/NQP.nqp:820)␤ in parse (gen/jvm/stage2/QRegex.nqp:1251)␤ in parse (gen/jvm/stage2/NQPHLL.nqp:1378)␤ in…»
timotimo ah 03:17
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timotimo Stage parse : 102.369 - it was never this fast before! (recently at least) 03:23
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timotimo yay, .*? will now turn into a scan :D 03:39
it can be much, much faster :)
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timotimo timotimo runs a spectest 03:40
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timotimo yays 03:54
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timotimo ah, i broke something, like expected :( 04:06
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timotimo i don't know exactly what makes cclass match and scan not match ... hum. 04:16
well, it makes a whole lot of sense
so how do i get it to capture :P
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timotimo hum. i *could* check if i'm at the first position and do the same thing <( does 04:18
it may be enough to put an empty !LITERAL there 04:19
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timotimo nope. i'm not sure how to get this to properly work 04:29
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timotimo i guess i could carry around a "have we had something matching yet?" flag and if it isn't set, create a subrule to capture an empty literal into $from 04:30
$!from*
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timotimo but i don't know exactly which rules capture and i dont want to figure it out 04:32
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segomos bitcoil.co.il/pool_analysis.pdfhtt...alysis.pdf 05:02
oops sorry 05:03
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TimToady lue: we cannot use Duration both for civil time and for Instant - Instant 06:04
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TimToady the definition of Duration in S02 is always an exact number of seconds, without slop like "one month" 06:05
we'll need to rename one or the other type
we could rename the well-behaved type Seconds, if the isofolk claim Duration 06:08
geekosaur Period?
lue TimToady: to be fair, they call it an interval. I can change the name if you'd like.
TimToady well, we call intervals Range, so I guess you could have interval :) 06:09
lue en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_8601#Time_intervals (The page calls the P<blah> form a "duration", but considering it belongs to the group of Interval specifiers... 06:10
TimToady then maybe let's change that to Interval
and it fits the language: "after an interval of 3 months"
lue TimToady: should you or I? (I've got a few minutes)
TimToady be my guest
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TimToady thanks for the dalek emulation :) 06:11
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lue I did that because I figured it was kinda a big change to ::Temporal. I think I was right there :) 06:13
TimToady :D 06:15
timotimo you're the dalek now, dog!
my advent calendar blog post draft document is still 0 bytes long 06:16
lue Oh, I had no clue what I said there until I saw TimToady's reply. :P
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lue There, pushed. You'll notice there's some stuff I'll get to tomorrow, if no-one else does in the intervening time. 06:21
lue will probably be doing a Temporal post for advent this year thanks to this :) 06:22
timotimo \o/ 06:25
lue Heh, I like the accidental symmetry this sets up. Where Instant/Duration are more "machine-friendly" Time types, Date[Time]?/Interval are more "human-friendly". :)
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bonsaikitten hrm. the 2013.11 release of rakudo has become quite a bit dumber in figuring out how to build itself 07:23
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bonsaikitten I mean, one could check in PATH if there's nqp there... optionally... maybe? ;) 07:24
timotimo well, it would have to look for nqp-p, nqp-j, nqp-m
not just nqp i think?
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nwc10 timotimo: turned out that turning one entry char classes into literals *was* a useful optimisation for the perl 5 regex engine. 07:52
timotimo how often do people do that?!? 07:53
also, when did that turn out?
nwc10 I forget exactly the details, but I think that it was partly that there was a style of writing /\./ as /[.]/ instead
bonsaikitten timotimo: by setting --backend that is kinda explicit
nwc10 (and I guess a bunch of other things that are metacharacters normally, but not in []/
bonsaikitten timotimo: so there would be no need to guess where npq-p hides when I already said --backend=parrot
timotimo i think at some point we decided against having a nqp symlink? but i may be misremembering
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nwc10 but it was an optimiation after about 10 years of optimising other things 07:55
timotimo wow
but it seems so simple!
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FROGGS moritz: do we wanna put that on the calender? froggs.de/perl6/CIMG0070.JPG 10:10
masak nice. 10:15
too bad it isn't one of the recent Camelia ones.
moritz FROGGS: +1 10:20
FROGGS masak: yeah, I don't have one of those :o) 10:21
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carlin rakudo: role bar { }; module Foo { multi trait_auxiliary:<is>(bar $trait, $container, $arg) is export { } } 10:31
camelia rakudo-jvm 874e35: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
..rakudo-parrot 874e35: OUTPUT«===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/37SjecTc0w␤Cannot add tokens of category 'trait_auxiliary'␤at /tmp/37SjecTc0w:1␤------>  module Foo { multi trait_auxiliary:<is>⏏(bar $trait, $container, $arg) is export…»
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carlin rakudo: role bar { }; module Foo { multi trait_mod:<is>(bar $trait, $container, $arg) is export { } } 10:34
camelia ( no output ) 10:35
carlin so trait_auxiliary is now trait_mod?
FROGGS seems like
(I never heard of trait_auxiliary)
masak FROGGS: I have one of those, but not a Christmas tree. :) 10:41
we have... a bit of a scheduling challenge, trying to fill 2013-12-04 .. 2013-12-08 in real time. 10:42
I would strongly suggest trying to find volunteers today, as much as possible.
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carlin ah, seems trait_auxiliary went away in 2009 :-) github.com/perl6/specs/commit/0484...32e412L356 10:48
carlin is only a few years out of touch
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masak masak is scouring the synopses for things to write about 10:49
carlin it's still used in t/spec/S12-traits/basic.t but those tests don't pass anyway, and still mentioned in S06 10:50
masak carlin: that definitely looks fossil-y. 10:52
TimToady: ping ^
FROGGS masak: I can try to write my posts as early as possible so that they can be posted next week or so
moritz ftfy 10:53
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FROGGS ftfy? 10:54
moritz fixed that for you 10:55
(the trait_auxilliary thingy)
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masak moritz: thanks. 10:55
FROGGS ahh, k
masak attention all channel denizens!
it is the month of December!
all rejoice!
also, please sign up for Advent Calendar posts!
your contribution is much appreciated!
FROGGS btw, if all goes well, we could have sized arrays and loop labels in the next changelog (besides other awesome things) 10:56
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FROGGS dalek: \o/ 10:57
moritz fetch_url: failure fetching trac.parrot.org/parrot/timeline?ti...ormat=rss: 500 Can't connect to trac.parrot.org:443 (certificate verify failed) 10:58
masak FROGGS: sized arrays! \o/ 11:02
FROGGS: loop labels! \o/
FROGGS :o) 11:03
I am smoking Arcterus's PR atm
dalek : 599b7ca | (Carl Mäsak)++ | misc/perl6advent-2013/schedule:
picked a topic for 2013-12-22

Gonna write about different operator types
11:05
masak I've now picked (preliminary) topics for each of my slots, by skimming through the synopses for topics.
funny thing: I got halfway through S03... :)
so I bet there are lots more things to write about. 11:06
lue++ # rdstar.wordpress.com/2013/07/22/so...in-perl-6/ 11:11
(hadn't seen it until it got posted on HN)
moritz www.reddit.com/r/programming/commen...bout_perl/ # p6advent submitted to reddit 11:12
masak and you already have a comment on the first advent post :) 11:21
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jaffa4 hi all 11:31
masak hi jaffa4 11:32
FROGGS hi jaffa4
jaffa4 I stumbled into some weird regex thing.
FROGGS that sounds interesting :o) 11:33
jaffa4 r: my $key = "parcel 2_end"; if $key ~~ /parcel \d+/ { say "****"}
camelia ( no output )
jaffa4 Can you explain that?
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FROGGS r: my $key = "parcel2_end"; if $key ~~ /parcel \d+/ { say "****"} 11:34
camelia rakudo-parrot 874e35, rakudo-jvm 874e35: OUTPUT«****␤»
FROGGS :P
r: my $key = "parcel2_end"; if $key ~~ /:s parcel \d+/ { say "****"}
camelia ( no output )
FROGGS r: my $key = "parcel 2_end"; if $key ~~ /:s parcel \d+/ { say "****"}
camelia rakudo-parrot 874e35, rakudo-jvm 874e35: OUTPUT«****␤»
FROGGS jaffa4: if you want to match whitespace you must say so 11:35
jaffa4 yes, yes
FROGGS sized arrays seem to work: github.com/rakudo/rakudo/pull/230 11:38
(at least it does not seem to break anything anymore)
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jaffa4 FROGGS: you talk very carefully 11:53
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dalek ecs: d7ae51e | Carlin++ | S14-roles-and-parametric-types.pod:
typo; being introduce --> being introduced

12:01
jaffa4 What is this ++? What is the significance? 12:07
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FROGGS jaffa4: that is karma 12:08
jaffa4 So what if you have high karma?| 12:09
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FROGGS then you are a good hacker :o) 12:10
colomon r: say +"Hello"
camelia rakudo-parrot 874e35: OUTPUT«Cannot convert string to number: base-10 number must begin with valid digits or '.' in '⏏Hello' (indicated by ⏏)␤ in method gist at gen/parrot/CORE.setting:12016␤ in method gist at gen/parrot/CORE.setting:1014␤ in sub say at gen/parrot/CORE.…»
..rakudo-jvm 874e35: OUTPUT«Cannot convert string to number: base-10 number must begin with valid digits or '.' in '⏏Hello' (indicated by ⏏)␤ in block at /tmp/rpeRG8jqOg:1␤ in any eval at gen/jvm/stage2/NQPHLL.nqp:1086␤ in any evalfiles at gen/jvm/stage2/NQPHLL.nqp:1292…»
colomon r: say +"1Hello"
camelia rakudo-parrot 874e35: OUTPUT«Cannot convert string to number: trailing characters after number in '1⏏Hello' (indicated by ⏏)␤ in method gist at gen/parrot/CORE.setting:12016␤ in method gist at gen/parrot/CORE.setting:1014␤ in sub say at gen/parrot/CORE.setting:12916␤ …»
..rakudo-jvm 874e35: OUTPUT«Cannot convert string to number: trailing characters after number in '1⏏Hello' (indicated by ⏏)␤ in block at /tmp/2eenIihVRu:1␤ in any eval at gen/jvm/stage2/NQPHLL.nqp:1086␤ in any evalfiles at gen/jvm/stage2/NQPHLL.nqp:1292␤ in any comman…»
FROGGS colomon: you'd need to switch to a v5 block to make the latter work :P 12:11
colomon …. is there still a way to do that in p6?
FROGGS if v5 were a proper module you could do: &prefix:<P5+>("1Hello") 12:12
colomon I'm looking at fixing the issues in IO::Prompter
The test :must({'be greater than 0' => {$_ > 0} }) used to work fine if you passed it "Hello" -- the value was presumably 0 12:13
now it's a fatal error.
and I cannot think of an obvious simple fix.
FROGGS :/ 12:14
colomon I can appreciate wanting to be strict, but forcing the programmer to test and make sure they've got a valid number string before conversion seems not very friendly. 12:15
FROGGS well, you can always try/CATCH 12:16
colomon :\ 12:17
masak jaffa4: people with high karma get not just street cred and a Nobel Prize, but they get to unlock the very Laws that underlie the Universe. 12:20
jaffa4: so it's pretty serious stuff, that's what I'm saying.
jaffa4++ # :)
jaffa4 jaffa4: I am sure it is as you say it.
masak: i am sure it is as you say it. 12:21
masak talking to yourself is the first sign of madness.
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masak masak waves from a train 12:22
jaffa4 that was a typo.
How can I see this karma thing? 12:23
masak it varies from time to time. 12:24
sometimes we have bots in here that keep count and reveal karma counts when asked.
but, interestingly, that's not really the point.
the point is that we have some way of marking appreciation, a bit like quantified compliments. 12:25
jaffa4 so thanks your for contribution is not good enough? 12:26
masak oh, it's very good, too.
I guess karma is the same, really, but it has a bit of an in-group thing to it. 12:27
lizmat lizmat has her eyes open, but is not yet awake 12:28
masak good not-yet-morning, lizmat ++! \o 12:30
gah, slow train connection typo.
lizmat masak o/
masak lizmat++
lizmat perl6advent.wordpress.com doesn't seem to work for me 12:31
could be flaky hotel connectivity
seems it is, appears ok on 3G connection 12:32
masak lizmat: re github.com/perl6/specs/commit/0f9d...a48a3fe2b: is it true that Whatever map is going away in favor of 'lazy loop { ... }', and can we change it already?
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lizmat I haven't backlogged much the past week, so I'm the wrong person to ask 12:33
it seems to me there is MTOWTDI :-) personally, I like the concept of a whatever map over a lazy loop 12:34
masak I'm in a similar position re backlogging :/
but it seems to me that Whatever map has immediate, obvious design problems.
instead of restating them, allow me to find the relevant backlog. 12:35
irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2013-11-28#i_7928055 and irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2013-11-28#i_7928075 12:36
jaffa4 Where are lizmat? 12:37
lizmat London, UK at the moment 12:38
masak nice!
LPW, I suppose.
lizmat well, the aftermath of it, yeah
masak how was it? 12:39
jaffa4 masak: about talking to self.. see this sfhelp.org/gwc/IF/ifs.htm
lizmat it was a good day filled with Perl 5 talks
with some agreeable pre and post socials
masak specifically, how was zefram's talk? 12:40
lizmat as always, awesome
masak it seemed Parrot/NQP-related.
lizmat I don't know lisp that intimately
it only had very little to do with Parrot
but more with lisp with a twist
rather than having everything being data, everything in zefram's lixp (yes, with an x) is executable 12:41
if I got the gist of it right :-) 12:42
masak jaffa4: that link seems... very intricate. thank you. ;)
lizmat that it was done on Parrot, was really secondary
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masak ok. 12:42
lizmat apart from running into some of Parrot's ideosyncracies 12:43
masak no doubt.
lizmat (parrot-training-wheels-off)
fixed some of that :-)
(aka arbitrary recursion limit of 1000)
masak lue: re Duration -- no no no no... :/
lue: not without a deep discussion first about not repeating the mistakes of CPAN's DateTime::Duration. 12:44
which I may or may not have missed due to not backlogging properly.
lizmat moritz: I will write something about Sets/Bags, but not before Wed
masak lue: the .delta method was basically added instead of Duration because it was less prone to wacky behavior. 12:45
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lizmat moritz: wrt first advent post: there's a "with with" in there 12:46
masak I vote for immediate reverting of c32379ef139b153bc380557935f87b09310cb98a, which seems to head horns first into heavy DateTime/Instant confusion.
lizmat moritz: also s/Stayed tuned/Stay tuned/ 12:47
masak it claims that Duration is based on Instants, and then immediately starts talking about :years in the constructor.
so tell me, how many seconds long is a year?
what about a month?
lizmat and is October 3600 seconds shorter or longer than normal ? 12:49
masak right, all those things.
lue: your effort is much appreciated, but you are fighting *serious* unknown unknowns here.
lue: (as are most of us when it comes to DateTime) 12:50
masak reverts
colomon r: class A { has $!b; method c { say $!b.perl; }; }; A.new(:b("Hello!")).c 12:51
camelia rakudo-parrot 874e35, rakudo-jvm 874e35: OUTPUT«Any␤»
FROGGS r: class A { has $.b; method c { say $!b.perl; }; }; A.new(:b("Hello!")).c 12:52
camelia rakudo-parrot 874e35, rakudo-jvm 874e35: OUTPUT«"Hello!"␤»
colomon FROGGS: yup. that was another change IO::Prompter needed. ;)
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FROGGS it does not warn when you pass "unknown" named args 12:53
colomon do normal methods?
r: class A { has $.b; method c { say $!b.perl; }; }; A.new(:b("Hello!")).c(:unkonwn("Ha!")); 12:54
camelia rakudo-parrot 874e35, rakudo-jvm 874e35: OUTPUT«"Hello!"␤»
FROGGS no
lizmat lizmat is off for some Baker Street perusing&
colomon guess not.
dalek ecs: ebab048 | masak++ | S32-setting-library/Temporal.pod:
Revert two commits related to Duration

Serious conceptual problems here, see
  irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2013-12-01#i_7938521
for discussion.
This reverts commit 1735a4652b3885a13ce14c654af2a5b90c915bd0. This reverts commit c32379ef139b153bc380557935f87b09310cb98a.
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dalek ecs: b414bc8 | masak++ | S32-setting-library/Temporal.pod:
Revert "[S32::Temporal] Expand valid ISO 8601 formats."

ISO 8601 is a good thing, but that does not mean *all* of it is a good thing. Specifiacally, allowing week specifications in the DateTime core will make the logic even more complicated than it already is, with extremely little benefit.
This reverts commit 97c5bc4e47b819b640fc5f815b861d753ed8aa9c.
13:00
masak this is a general reminder to everyone that Temporal.pod is unusually sensitive to bikeshedding, and it is *very* advisable to precede changes to it with discussion on the channel. 13:01
for some reason, most people feel they have a good grasp on time issues, probably due to having seen a fair number of clocks in their lives.
timotimo o/
masak greetings, timotimo 13:02
S32/Temporal is a result of many long hours of weighing pros and cons of various issues. (most of it done by other people than me at this point; phew!) -- let's continue the tradition of evolving it slowly and in a consensus manner. 13:06
FROGGS masak: we might want to invite Dave Rolsky some day to that channel :o) 13:07
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masak he has weighed in on p6l at least once, IIRC. 13:10
jaffa4 lizmat: what is the weather like in London? 13:14
timotimo is there a reliable way to tell if a piece of Regex QAST will cause a match to happen? 13:15
FROGGS timotimo: there should be a pass, no?= 13:20
timotimo ah, that's not helpful; i'm trying to find out where the match starts 13:21
or rather: is this part of the regex already after whatever initially sets $!from
also i realize i'll have to look at it from the other end as well 13:25
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colomon new build failure in DateTime::TimeZone. 13:33
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