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pugs_svn r24123 | hinrik++ | [util/perl6.vim] more types and functions, and a few operator fixes 00:07
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literal is there a name for keywords like is, but, does, trusts, of, returns ? 00:19
constraints, maybe 00:20
masak literal: very difficult to ack the specs for an answer to that question. :) 00:23
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masak literal: you might want to check what they're called in STD 00:52
literal maybe
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masak literal: at least 'is', 'does', and 'will' are called "trait auxiliary" in STD 00:56
literal hm yeah, but that's narrower than what I was looking for, since it doesn't cover the other stuff like "but", "returns" 00:58
the name isn't crucial, I'm just wondering what I should call them in perl6.vim
TypeConstraint or something will do 00:59
masak literal: ok.
thei0s literal: are you doing a perl6 vim colouring plugin?
masak returns is called a "trait verb", and "but" is an infix operator.
literal thei0s: I'm editing the one that's in the pugs repository (util/perl6.vim) 01:00
thei0s good to know it exists :)
literal masak: yeah, but one might argue that they all place constraints on something, and vim's syntax groups aren't very broad so that definition is narrow enough 01:01
er, aren't very narrow, I meant to say
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literal perl6: my @l = <asdf\>asdf>; print @l.perl 01:52
p6eval elf 24123: OUTPUT[Parse error in: /tmp/OpBx7GOITs␤panic at line 1 column 0 (pos 0): Can't understand next input--giving up␤WHERE: my @l = <asdf\>asdf>; print @l␤WHERE:/\<-- HERE␤ STD_red/prelude.rb:99:in `panic'␤ STD_red/std.rb:76:in `scan_unitstopper'␤ STD_red/std.rb:224:in `comp_unit'␤
..STD_r...
..pugs: OUTPUT[\("asdf>asdf",)]
..rakudo 33391: OUTPUT[["asdf>asdf"]]
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literal perl6: my @l = <<asdf>asdf>>; print @l.perl 01:55
p6eval pugs: OUTPUT[\("asdf>asdf",)]
..rakudo 33391: OUTPUT[["asdf>asdf"]]
..elf 24123: OUTPUT[["a"]]
literal perl6: my @l = <<asdf>\>asdf>>; print @l.perl
p6eval rakudo 33391: OUTPUT[["asdf>>asdf"]]
..pugs: OUTPUT[\("asdf>>asdf",)]
..elf 24123: OUTPUT[["a"]]
mncharity I repeatedly manage to forget what a bleeping monster STD.pm is. It's comparable in size to the rest of elf combined. Boy this is going to be a lot of work.
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masak mncharity++ 02:12
thei0s can somebody tell me if this example svn.perl.org/perl6/pugs/trunk/examp.../unique.pl is correct according to the newest specification? because I needed to modify it to get it working with pugs 6.2.13 (modification: all function calls with array as parameters should be: |@xs, I also replaced in all parameters *$ with just $ (I don't get it what is the point of having multiple variadic/slurpy arguments??)) 02:13
lambdabot tinyurl.com/5jlp5s
mncharity /me++ ? 02:15
pugs_svn r24124 | putter++ | STD_blue now parses and dumps STD.pm.
r24124 | putter++ | [STD_blue] sym bugfix.
r24124 | putter++ | [STD_green] Simplify STD.pm parse caching.
mncharity for being daunted? I'm daunted by things all the time... ;)
masak mncharity: for doing what you're doing with Elf.
mncharity :)
sigh 02:16
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mncharity thei0s: sorry, for myself, I'm way behind on what's valid and not. 02:16
masak thei0s: I'm stumped too. looks right, though. 02:17
mncharity thei0s: actually, there's a bug in the question,
"correct according to the newest specification" and "get it working with pugs" are likely to be mutually exclusive. pugs stopped tracking the spec some years ago. 02:18
masak nod.
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mncharity ok, end of day. 02:45
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pugs_svn r24125 | hinrik++ | [util/perl6.vim] highlight block labels and =<>, fix multiline <>, add more keywords, and plenty of other improvements 02:57
mncharity good night all & 03:00
pugs_svn r24126 | putter++ | [elf_h] Flesh out RegexDef node somewhat.
rakudo_svn r33396 | pmichaud++ | [rakudo]: !OUTER doesn't work for bare closures, so refactor implicit lexicals to avoid it.
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literal perl6: say "asdf { 1 + \} 1 }" 03:05
p6eval elf 24126: OUTPUT[asdf { 1 + \} 1 }␤]
..pugs: OUTPUT[*** ␤ Unexpected "}"␤ at /tmp/TKj8vcO4eC line 1, column 18␤]
..rakudo 33395: OUTPUT[Statement not terminated properly at line 1, near "+ \\} 1 }\""␤␤current instr.: 'parrot;PGE;Util;die' pc 129 (runtime/parrot/library/PGE/Util.pir:83)␤]
literal perl6: say "asdf { 1 + 1 }"
p6eval pugs, rakudo 33395: OUTPUT[asdf 2␤] 03:06
..elf 24126: OUTPUT[asdf { 1 + 1 }␤]
literal perl6: sub hi { 'ho' }; say "asdf &hi" 03:07
p6eval elf 24126, pugs, rakudo 33395: OUTPUT[asdf &hi␤]
masak rakudo: say "{ "1 + } 1" }" 03:08
p6eval rakudo 33395: OUTPUT[1 + } 1␤]
masak rakudo: say "{ "{ "{ 1 }" }" }" 03:09
p6eval rakudo 33395: OUTPUT[1␤]
pugs_svn r24127 | putter++ | [STD_blue] 'token x { a }' -> IR. 03:19
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rakudo_svn r33397 | pmichaud++ | [rakudo]: Clean up handling of implicit lexicals a bit. 03:50
r33398 | pmichaud++ | [rakudo]: Add :g(lobal) flag to .subst( $regex, $repl )
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pugs_svn r24128 | hinrik++ | [util/perl6.vim] highlight escaped delimiters in certain single-quoted strings 03:59
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rakudo_svn r33399 | pmichaud++ | [rakudo]: Add :g(lobal) flag to .subst($str, $repl) 04:20
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rakudo_svn r33400 | pmichaud++ | [rakudo]: Oops! Fix :global on .subst( $regex, $str ) 04:40
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slavik`lap rakudo: my @list = 1..inf; 05:45
p6eval rakudo 33408: OUTPUT[Could not find non-existent sub inf␤current instr.: '_block11' pc 22 (EVAL_14:17)␤]
slavik`lap rakudo: my @list = 1..inf; @list[5]=42; for 1..10 { say @list[$_]; } 05:46
p6eval rakudo 33408: OUTPUT[Could not find non-existent sub inf␤current instr.: '_block11' pc 22 (EVAL_15:17)␤]
slavik`lap no lazy list?
pugs: my @list = 1..inf; @list[5]=42; for 1..10 { say @list[$_]; } 05:48
p6eval pugs: OUTPUT[*** No such subroutine: "&inf"␤ at /tmp/K7SYFT2uCI line 1, column 12-18␤]
thei0s shouldn't inf be written as Inf ?
slavik`lap rakudo: my @list = 1..Inf; @list[5]=42; for 1..10 { say @list[$_]; }
p6eval rakudo 33408: OUTPUT[Use of uninitialized value␤Use of uninitialized value␤␤Use of uninitialized value␤␤Use of uninitialized value␤␤Use of uninitialized value␤␤42␤Use of uninitialized value␤␤Use of uninitialized value␤␤Use of uninitialized value␤␤Use of uninitialized value␤␤Use of uninitialized
..value␤␤]
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slavik`lap heh 05:48
rakudo: my @list = 1..Inf; @list[2]=42; for 0..4 { say @list[$_]; } 05:50
p6eval rakudo 33408: OUTPUT[Use of uninitialized value␤Use of uninitialized value␤␤Use of uninitialized value␤␤42␤Use of uninitialized value␤␤Use of uninitialized value␤␤]
slavik`lap pugs: my @list = 1..Inf; @list[2]=42; for 0..4 { say @list[$_]; }
hmm 05:51
pugs: say "hello"
p6eval pugs: No output (you need to produce output to STDOUT)
pugs: OUTPUT[hello␤]
slavik`lap pugs: my @list = 1..Inf; @list[2]=42; for 0..4 -> $a { say @list[$a]; }
rakudo: my @list = 1..Inf; @list[2]=42; for 0..4 -> $a { say @list[$a]; } 05:52
p6eval pugs: No output (you need to produce output to STDOUT)
rakudo 33408: OUTPUT[Use of uninitialized value␤Use of uninitialized value␤␤Use of uninitialized value␤␤42␤Use of uninitialized value␤␤Use of uninitialized value␤␤]
slavik`lap interesting
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thei0s I was wondering if something like "my $file = open 'largefile.txt', :r; for =$file -> $line { say $line; }" would use more and more memory as the file gets read or will it discard previously read lines from memory? (imagine largefile.txt with size >1GB) (if yes, would it then be better to use sth like: while(!$file.eof) { $_= =$file; ... } ?) 09:00
masak thei0s: assuming you don't store away old lines, they should go out of scope and be garbage collected. 09:02
(regardless of the actual looping construct) 09:03
thei0s ql 09:08
is it possible to have classes in classes? or classes in blocks?
(just curious)
masak thei0s: possible, but right not more useful than having them outside.
thei0s nice 09:09
masak one of those less specced things.
s/right not/right now no/
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salmonix Hi there, curious about Perl6 what should I try? Pugs or Rakudo/Parrot? 09:35
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masak salmonix: I'd say Rakudo, since Pugs development has been stalled for a year or so. 09:36
whereas Rakudo is progressing by leaps and bounds.
salmonix masak: Yes, it was behind my question. Ok., I go for it. One more thing: 09:39
Do I have to build Parrot AND then build perl6 or perl6 in Languages is enough? 09:40
masak Parrot and then Rakudo.
cd parrot; perl Makefile.PL; make; cd languages/perl6; make perl6 09:41
salmonix masak: Ok. I'm on it. 09:43
masak best of luck.
salmonix salmonix: (keeping them Xed.) Thanx. 09:44
thei0s am, I don't know if Rakudo is already the right answer for this, because many things don't work (I tried 5 examples from pugs and nothing worked) 09:50
moritz_ rakudo doesn't implement as many features yet as pugs does. 09:51
masak though in some cases it's actually more feature-complete.
moritz_: good morning.
I'd prefer Rakudo over Pugs as a development platform today, because the things Rakudo does implement, it implements closer to the spec of today, and it's being actively developed, so one can talk to the developers about the time frame for upcoming features 09:55
audreyt did a fantastic job with Pugs a few years ago, and she has hinted that she'll be coming back to Pugs development. but that hasn't happened yet. 10:00
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riffraff hi 10:31
moritz_ hi riffraff 10:32
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thei0s hm, there is just one thing left that I am wondering about from the beginning a couple of days ago when I started learning perl6: why does perl6 use so many new words/keywords/way things are called (some pretty unusual, so it looks there will be need for a dictionary soon) for things that already exist with an established name in other languages or that could be called different so that they would be easily memorizable (eg. command 't 12:51
(or also in the language itself 'rule' is just 'token' with whitespaces, so why not just 'tokenws' or sth that is easy to remember (also rules from language theory have nothing to do with whitespaces), why classes introduce new keywords like 'has' and 'method' if they are quite similar to 'my'/'our'(with addition to having accessors) and 'sub', I also think that the keyword 'multi' is not needed (the compiler can be smart enough to fi
for me all this looks just like a way to confuse people who want to learn perl6 and to make it harder for those who already know perl6 to use something else! in addition these different hard to remember names serve the sustaining of imho bad situation that Larry described somewhere: "When I look at the present situation, what I see is the various scripting communities behaving a lot like neighboring tribes in the jungle, sometimes tra
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rff thei0s, maybe because the thing in perl6 that resembles things in other languages are not exactly like those.. and so having them called the same way would introduce more subtle problems? 12:53
moritz_ thei0s: usually all Perl keywords are also English words. 'tokenws' isn't, 'rule' is
likewise 'say' is much shorter and better to read than 'println' 12:54
thei0s tokenws -- tokenwhitespace
moritz_ that violates the principle of huffman coding
thei0s say in good, not criticizing it :)
s/in/is/
moritz_ thei0s: btw some of your lines are truncated, see irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/today for what we see 12:55
thei0s but the features are almost same as elsewhere, so why shouldn't they be called similar?
lambdabot Title: IRC log for #perl6, 2008-12-01
thei0s (at least similar if not same)
moritz_ if you look at STD.pm you'll see that the use cases for rule ws. token are not that similar, and it makes sense to distinguish these two (IMHO) 12:56
thei0s all lines are truncated, ahh.. I tought freenode had longer lines allowed.. so here is the continuation of the "first line": 12:57
(eg. command 'taken' is called 'yield' in python (why the new name?), 'role' is in java just an interface with some implemented methods, @array.elems is usually retrieved with a length method (even in perl5 it is called length(@array)), slurpy arguments are usually called variadic, 12:58
'given'/'when' are really a little more than 'switch'/'case' from elsewhere, but imho there is not such a change that would satisfy to force everyone in learning new words, signatures in subroutines are usually called just parameter lists...)
(or also in the language itself 'rule' is just 'token' with whitespaces, so why not just 'tokenws' or sth that is easy to remember (also rules from language theory have nothing to do with whitespaces), why classes introduce new keywords like 'has' and 'method' if
they are quite similar to 'my'/'our'(with addition to having accessors) and 'sub', I also think that the keyword 'multi' is not needed (the compiler can be smart enough to figure it out by itself), and many many more... (also a couple of artifact words/ways of calling things from perl5))...
for me all this looks just like a way to confuse people who want to learn perl6 and to make it harder for those who already know perl6 to use something else! in addition these different hard to remember names serve the sustaining of imho bad situation that Larry described somewhere:
"When I look at the present situation, what I see is the various scripting communities behaving a lot like neighboring tribes in the jungle, sometimes trading, sometimes warring, but by and large just keeping out of each other's way in complacent isolation."
moritz_ thei0s: gather/take is quite different from yield...
thei0s: for one gather/take is dynamically scoped, which yield isn't... 12:59
thei0s: and gather/take's workflow is determined by the laziness level of the list, whereas yield is strictly lazy
the thing with given/when is that, unlike switch/case in other languages, they are not tied together, you can used them separately (where 'switch/case' doesn't make sense, from a linguistic point of view) 13:00
thei0s but does does this really affect the programmer? if he wants to know the details he could check them and see that all "perl-yields" are such and such... but a novince would not distinguish them 13:01
moritz_ it does affect the programmer 13:02
just like 'die' and 'return' are different
thei0s why not.. you could have case ... just in the middle of the code and know that this is doing ~~ $_ ..
moritz_ (return() unwinds one call stack, die() as many as needed before a try block is found)
anyway, I think that it's more confusing if you have multiple concepts of the same name (even if they are similar) than having a separate name of separate things 13:06
but that's up for personal taste, of course 13:07
thei0s yeah, but this are the toughts that came to my mind when I started learning perl6... new words for similar concepts mean more time to remember them 13:09
moritz_ when reading the code? or writing? 13:10
thei0s when reading tutorials, documentation and code 13:11
:)
moritz_ I do see the downsides of a rich syntax, which is why I started working on a tool that explains syntax that you feed into it
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rakudo_svn r33419 | pmichaud++ | [rakudo]: spectest-progress.csv update: 227 files, 4689 passing, 10 failing 13:30
r33419 | pmichaud++ | * 10 failures in S12-methods/multi.t
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moritz_ pugs: say "test" 13:33
p6eval pugs: OUTPUT[test␤]
moritz_ I don't know who unbroke pugs on evalbot, but I praise him/her/it
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pmichaud thei0s: in each of the cases you cite, there's actually a distinction that is being made that means we can't use the old keyword 13:39
thei0s: for example, 'has' isn't at all the same as 'my/our'.
thei0s: given/when isn't the same as switch/case (because 'when' can be used inside of any block, not just 'given/switch', and has different semantics from 'case') 13:40
thei0s yes, but it is similar... a user would know in which context he is and therefore know how it is going to behave
pmichaud ...which is similar? 13:41
thei0s has and my/our :)
pmichaud no, they're different. has is a per-instance variable, my/our are for the class.
'has' means "every instance has its own attribute like this", 'my/our' are just lexically scoped to the class/package. 13:42
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thei0s so you yre telling me it is possible to do: class A { my $shared; method x($s) { $shared =$s; } method y { return $s } } and then use: my $aa =A.new; my $bb=A.new; $aa.x(10); say $bb.y; -- would print 10? (like a class variable, shared among all instances of this class?) 13:44
moritz_ yes, that would work.
pmichaud I think you meant "return $shared" in method y, but yes -- 'my' declares a class variable. 13:45
thei0s ok, good then
i tought my/our can not be used, therefore having a 'has' is just adding complexity
pmichaud for 'rule' versus 'tokenws' -- this actually goes against what you're advocating; people writing grammars have long been used to the term "rule", while "tokenws" would be introducing an unfamiliar new word into the lexicon. 13:46
my/our in a class definition are really just package variables -- i.e., shared among all methods of the package.
they just define a couple of helpful accessor methods as well.
thei0s what if token would be replaced by something that contains word rule :) 13:47
pmichaud 'token' is also the standard rule that grammar authors are used to.
moritz_ then it would probably be longer
pmichaud sorry, standard term
people who write grammars, parsers, and lexers have often used the term 'token' and 'rule' -- these are naturally familiar to them (and so they get used).
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thei0s ok, afaik those who just theoretically write grammars don't distinguish any whitespace sensitive or not sensitive variants of rules.. 13:49
moritz_ usually a token is a minimal subrule in a lexer, and what it matches is handed to the parser 13:51
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pmichaud I think one of the things we discovered while creating Perl 6 was that the distinguishing characteristic between what we call "token" and "rule" is their handling of inter-token whitespace. 13:52
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pmichaud and I mean that in a grammar-author sense, not just a Perl 6 sense 13:52
if you ask a (non-Perl 6) grammar author "What is the difference between a 'token' and a 'rule'", the answer would tend to come down to the notion that a 'token' is taken as a unit and we look carefully at each token, while a rule is a sequence of tokens where we expect to allow whitespace 13:54
it turns out to be _very_ natural in practice
thei0s :) 13:59
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riffraff hi everyone 15:31
moritz_ @seen everyone
lambdabot I haven't seen everyone.
riffraff eh 15:32
I was wondering what is the best way to define a type with partial order
moritz_ what's "partial order"?
just that there's a < defined somehow?
riffraff yes 15:33
but
consider the problem of defining a new Color class
with only three possiblt instances red, green, blue
moritz_ there's always a "but" :-) 15:34
riffraff shall I define the <=> relation 9 times ?
slavik riffraff: had that nickname for long?
riffraff slavik, coupld of years, yes
do I remember you someone else? :) 15:35
slavik riffraff: do you work in the IT sector by chance? perhaps in an IT support position?
riffraff: probably not
moritz_ riffraff: well, in the general case yes. In other cases you can re-used other ops, or exploit symmetries
riffraff IT support? no, sorry. I am a free lance developer so I think I qualify in the IT sector, though 15:36
moritz_ riffraff: with an enum Color <Red Green Blue>; you inherit infix:<< <=> >>(Int, Int)
riffraff moritz_, I see thanks
slavik hmm, nvm then :(
riffraff ah, I didn't know about this cool enum :) 15:37
moritz_ it's buried deep down in S12 I think
riffraff I will check, thanks 15:38
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rakudo_svn r33426 | particle++ | [rakudo] convert some PAST::Val(...) calls to constants 19:00
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rakudo_svn r33427 | infinoid++ | [CAGE] Remove trailing whitespace. 19:10
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rakudo_svn r33429 | particle++ | [rakudo] take advantage of parrot's config to make rebase tool more portable 20:50
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riffraff I think I found a bug in rakudo and I may have a mini patch 21:07
wrt subset declarations
yet, the tests pass, mone pass too, but if I run spectests some of them seem to fail 21:08
or maybe not, I cannot understand the output :)
[particle]1 there are some expected failures in spectest for rakudo atm
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riffraff I see 21:09
[particle] i'm not sure the failures are the same on every platform, though, so i can't tell you precisely which are expected 21:10
riffraff I'm just rerunning the test suite without my patches and I'll compare the outputs 21:12
at first I did not notice that spectes was a separate target
[particle] 'make test' runs sanity tests in parrot repo 21:13
'make spectest' runs the official test suite from pugs repo
only spectest has expected failures
riffraff yep, I found out now thanks 21:14
slavik failure is not an option!!!
:)
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riffraff by the way, how do I handle this? the bug appears when using as a subset guard clause a regex literal 21:16
apparently rakudo treats it as a block but then the internal machinery fails because a regex is.. mh.. not a block enough
now, I haveth fix and my tests, but shall they go in the rakudo tests or in the pugs codebase? 21:17
the official spec miss these because they just check for non-regex literals in that position
but the failure is most probably impèlementation specific
riffraff feels extremely incompetent 21:18
[particle] submit patch and tests in a message to [email@hidden.address]
we'll help you sort it out from there 21:19
riffraff with [PATCH] header? 21:21
21:24 alech joined, Gothmog__ is now known as Gothmog_
[particle] yes, please 21:25
21:44 smg left
pugs_svn r24129 | hinrik++ | [util/perl6.vim] more comments 21:46
21:47 ejs left
riffraff done 21:52
moritz_ rakudo: sub evil(@a is copy) { @a[0] = 8 }; my @b = (1, 2); evil(@b); say @b[0]
p6eval rakudo 33429: OUTPUT[8␤]
moritz_ bug, or feature?
avar Bug? the @a param obviously isn't being copied 21:57
moritz_ I don't know how deep the copy should go 21:58
pmichaud I don't think is copy is implemented
I know that we still have issues with array parameters.
moritz_ rakudo: sub a($b is copy) { $b = 4 }; my $x = 5; a($x); say $x
p6eval rakudo 33429: OUTPUT[5␤]
moritz_ it is, for scalars ;-)
pmichaud well, there ya go. It's the array parameter problem. 21:59
I'm working on arrays now, actually. :-)
[particle] hrmm. i've got a grammar problem
moritz_ and I'm turning the test in RT #60976 into a spectest